I am getting so much bullshit from not saying the pledge of allegience. At school, I have to stand outside the class while the other puppets say their pledge because i refuse to. When my school started making us go to the "pep rallys" because of the new principle (new bitch) I had at least four teachers telling me to stand up... i just said no to them. They did it every time . Now i have my teacher 3rd period who makes me wait outside. And he calls my parents to tell them! Now my parents are trying to make me say it too! Fuck these bastards! They say i will grow up some day. What the fuck do they know. Its my damn choice!!!

Any ideas i should use to make them accept?
Or who thinks i should be a pussy and give in?

Doesnt look like im giving in... (me) :flag:

Edit... look there, even more so i projected the wrong image. What i meant was...

(me) :People holding flag forcing me to pledge:

there, thats better.

The Pledge Of Allegiance is where American's swear their loyalty to America, right? So are you not loyal to your country? Do you not believe in the constitution of the United States?

A lot of other nations view the American sense of loyalty to their country with envy. If only Brits were as proud to be British as Americans are to be American. The closest we get to any national pride is singing Abide With Me and the national anthem before the FA Cup final.

I think that the Pledge Of Allegiance is a good thing for Americans as it never lets you forget your heritage and what your forefathers fought for in establishing your country. In Britain we haven't got anything like that and as a result we have a lot of immigrants who don't respect British society and culture. They have no sense of Britishness or what it means to be British and as a result they don't feel compelled to integrate fully into our society.

Don't forget there are many countries in which a pledge of allegiance is necessary by order of a dictator. Many inhabitants of those countries will be tortured, or worse, if they don't "worship" their leader every day.

I'm sure right now, that you feel like your being dictated to. But America is the land of the free and the Pledge Of Allegiance is intended to remind Americans of that and to inspire pride in America. It's sort of like the president saying that you can enjoy freedom of will and speach but at the cost of paying him respect: you're either with or against him.

It might be difficult to see this considering the present incumbant of the White House, but despite everything Bush has done, have your civil liberties - as laid down in the constitution - been infringed in any way since he came to power? No, the constitution is still standing proud, and I'd swear allegiance to it every single day if it meant I was free from tyrany.

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Do it, and the half way through it start singing "Heavy Metal, or no Metal at all. Wimps and Posers, leave the hall"

Class, pure class!

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i dont say the pledge as a way of expressing my love of america. i am using my freedoms as an american by not saying the pledge, just as somebody else says the pledge to express their patriotism.

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Hmmm, johnmansley makes a fairly good point, I guess. But you guys have freedom of speech as a constitutional right, correct? That's obviously the freedom to speak your mind, whether it be through yelling & screaming or not speaking at all. you could also look at it this way: you're saying it to the nation, not to the Prez or the govt.

However, if I were you, I just be fucking stubborn & stand outside humming terribly complex metal tunes really loudly every day. Maybe one day they'll make you leave the building every time they say it because you hum so loudly & it could turn into a magical cigarette break for you.

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You've got the right to not say it, and they cannot punish you for your beliefs. Wouldn't it technically be illegal to send you outside? Or is it their right? Find that out.

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No.

It has already been ruled by the Supreme Court that it is illegal to make you say it. It is just as unconstitutional to make someone say something as it is to take away their freedom of speech. I've been though this already, i was called down the principle and screamed at for literaly 45 mins by 3 grown men. Over what? A piece of cloth. Pledging the flag (for me) states that you support your goverment, the way it is run, and what they are doing at present time. But these poeple trying to make you do it are hypocrites. They are making you stand and plege something you dont belive in, forcing you to take their opinions and make them your own, yeah thats what America is all about, forcing people into your way of thinking and your opinions, oh wait that IS what America is about these days (see all our political/relgious crusades we have been on lately). Standing up like a drone and saying something you don't believe in would make our forefathers turn in their grave. What if they did that? They would be in England still being persecuted for their (retarded and stupidly conservative) Religous beliefs. Standing your ground on this will make you more "American" or "Patriotic" (I use quotes because these terms have been raped of all meaning in the past few years) than they will ever be wether or not they will ever reconize it. Stand up for what you belive, it will make you a better person and sticking by your convictions is one of the most respectable things one can do, in any culture. Thats why I atleast respect extremist Muslims.

EDIT: I t5hink tehy can make you go outside, but with a good enough lawyer it could be argued that it is segregation. They don't make Jehova's Witness' leave even though they don't stand because of their religious beliefs. Infact, if there was a draft, Jehova's Witness are inellegible for it because of their Religion.

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America love it OR GET THE FUCK OUT!
why dont you go another country such as johnmansley discribed where if you dont do as they say they kill you. it may be "unconstitutional" to make you say it but stand and show respect for the flag and the freedom that you are allowed to have i stand and say it proudly every day (one of the VERY few i might add) and even if i wasnt american i would still at lest stand which i do when i visit other countrys and they play their national anthems i may not know the words to them even if i did i wouldnt say them because its not my country but i will always stand at lest show respect to them i am a guest after all

why do you think "giving in" and saying it makes you a pussy?
you think showing respect for your country and those who have given everything they had to form and keep this country a free nation makes you pussy
were the scottsmen that were showing love for there country by fighting the english to gain there freedom pussys?
were the vikings that sang out
"Lo, There Do I See My Father
Lo, There Do I See My Mother
My Sisters And My Brothers
Lo, There Do I See My People
Back To The Beginning
Lo, There Do They Call To Me
And Bid Me To Take My Place
In The Halls Of Valhalla
Where The Brave May Live Forever" to their fallen brethren pussys because they were showing them respect for what they had done for the other norsemen?
no they were not pussys they were some of the bravest, courages and LOYAL people that come to mind

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guitar demon, you are a moron with your stupid "love it or leave it" attitude.

Hey, why have elections? Have have votes, why exercise rights gaurteed to us? Just have the Bush family run, and if you don't like it, leave. Don't bother voting. Why change? Youre a fucking idiot and the reason why the country is where it is now. Shut up untill you have a valid point with a valid argument.

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the only difference between valid and unvalid is interpritation you may think its unvalid but that doesnt meen it is i may think its valid yet that doesnt make it so iether

(this is assuming that "gaurteed" is supposed to be guaranteed)this is just the thing poeple just expect their rights and that they will always be there yet if they never support their country and what it stands for why should they have them? and by many people not supporting america these days we run the risk of possably lossing our country and the rights that we take for granted and then we wont have them and youll long for the days when you were yelled at for not saying the pledge
but as you said standing for the pledge means that you support your government and the way it is run you are correct elections are good it will create change to make things better but if you dont like it then leave and come back when things get better or stay but if you do then dont just bitch unintelligently by calling people bastards, pussys and morons because once the country gets the way you like it then you might be that "bastard or pussy" in someonelses eye
although i suppose my comment on "leave it or get the fuck out" could be taken as a little unintellegent...

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I am glad to see you guys who have some good input here!!! Except for you Guitar Demon. Your first few words alone made for a dumb comment. And id also like to add that loving the country and reciting the pledge for some people who are trying to control you, when they in fact are in no posistion to do so, is very different to me.

John, I have come to respect your opinion in most cases, even here i think you make a valid point, and back it up. I just dont feel that i would be doing the right thing by giving in.

I would like to stress to all that the teacher and i have a huge personal conflict that has gone on for over a year. You guys have to understand that this all started because he thought he could make me say it. He truly thought he was in the position to control me like that. Im sorry to all those who really have pride in their country, I dont mean to offend you or how you feel about your country.

This is not the first time I have been forced to "stand". I have been made a fool of, if you ask some, in front of a church full of people because i was not singing and praising like the rest of them. The man on the stage spoke to me through the mic telling me to stand and praise!!! who knows what all the people in there were thinking about the whole deal. And before any religous people go bitching here about why i was in there in the first place... I was there with a girl who is a friend of mine. She is the only reason i was there. So dont bitch on the subject of why i was there. Anyway, after i didnt stand he starts talking about "people like me", or some shit! A few people walked out, believe it or not, because what he was doing. After all he tried to apologize and i just walked away, didnt say a word. You may ask why i didnt leave sooner. And ill tell you, i dont know. but that is the story.
And this is why i dont take to well to being told to do something i know i dont have to do.

That was a good one Agent-Orange! hehe

Sorry i wrote so damn much! Its the only way to have it heard...
Again, thank you all for your input, i appreciate it. What do you think of the incident in the church i just mentioned. I think that guy was out of line...

Just say the damn pledge and stop trying to look all cool and evil by nto doing it and being sent out it takes like 1 god damn minute at the most to say the god damn thing. Is it really that hard to mutter a few fucken words? Some fo these people just piss me off .

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If people fallowed the "Love it or leave it" attitude Demon, then America would still be ran with slavery laws. Think about it, if people don't try and change things that seem unjust, then things would have never of changed. You can at least take a moment and see their side of it.

When the the country does something that you don't agree with then not pledging can be a way of protesting it. It's not showing distrespect, its a way of getting attention so that you can tell those people why at the moment you are not standing.

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Guitar demon:
I think you posted while i was typing my last post...
and Darko too, damn you guys are fast.

But if you read the long post i just made, you will see that the teacher was trying to control me. And i think it is safe to say that i dont hate america, but i hate people who try to use me like a puppet. You know what i mean

CarniverousWind!!??
You have no idea of the situation. I am not trying to look cool, where do you come up with that? And Mutter a few words? I believe that is not saying either. You should rethink your words. That was pretty lame of you.

knowing that you and that teacher had a conflict kinda puts a new perspective on it im thinking that the main reason you did it was in spite of him and possably the rest of the school and not so much because you hate america?if so then i gained back the respect for you that was lossed when i first read your post as far as the church thing goes i dont feel that you were made a fool of. asking you to stand was not out of line to me but to go on with the "people like you" was. you should have shot back something like its people like him that killed thousands during the crusades even though their bible says is wrong and that me(you) sitting here is the more respectable then the way "people like you" acted
and i do realise that my first comment was stupid and ignorent so everyone can stop pointing that out now

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I still say stop whining like a little bitch. If i went to your school i would of fucking punched you in the face for being an idiot. Thats just me though and i know noone cares what i think cause I think everything is stupid heh.

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Carniverous Wind: To stand up and mutter a few words it disrespectful. It has no motive behind it and just proves apathetic about it.

Guitar Demon: Dragon's motive where all to show that he couldnt be controlled and the flag was just a catalyst. Because Dragon didn't want to stand in church was for his own personal reasons and the priest felt that by putting him on the spot would make him stand. Is that right?

Example: 300 people dressed in green and one dressed in blue. The leader points out to the one in blue and calls all the other 298 people to burn a whole in the back of his head with their eyes. Of course the man in blue is going to feel ostracized and want to throw on a green shirt. But to just do it because of pressure? That shouldn't be the reason to do something. Religion teaches kindness to others and to put someone on the spot like that is very inconciderate.

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i see now darko i thought it was just all cause he hated america and what it stood for ect. but i dont understand the word catalyst in your sentece though if i remember right from my science days wasnt a catalyst something to increase a chemical reaction?

I do believe that you shouldnt do something because of pressure aswell even if i dont agree with it you shouldnt do it because of anyone pressuring you to

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Ok, then you agree.

Your right about the catalyst, its something to help cause a reaction when there isn't currently enough.. The flag was the catalyst, it caused the reaction of the rebellion. I probably could have used a better discription.

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i refuse to say the pledge because i have the right to say that i wont, there for i am expressing my patriotism with a different voice, thats what i told my teacher that i have when we say the pledge, and he said i made a very good point.

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Haha, I just faked it back in those days. I put my hand on my chest, but I didn't say a word, nobody noticed. My best friend loves america...the flag that hangs from my home always gets worn sooo quickly, like a week, and it's completely wheathered and torn, and he's loves it....something about the american revolution flag, he......bought it from me for like 5 bucks, so he could tear it and burn holes in it, to immitate cannon holes and shit....hahaha weird guy. I couldn't care less. My mom just keeps buying more flags to hand then.
I think you shouldn't have to say the pledge if you don't want to. I know where both sides are coming from; you just don't wanna, and the elders think you are the reason for the bad in the world because of your rebellious attitude. They want you to conform to society, and become a prosperous american, saying you don't want to, is like telling them you're going to be the next serial killer, and they just fear that. That's why they want to control you. I don't care how rebellious you are, but respect them for who they are. They ARE there for you, so give 'em some credit. Next time he tells you to leave for the pledge, just continuously go outside without badmouthing or making a comment, I bet you he will get over it. After a month or so, he'd get tired of you disrupting the class as you make your way to your seat as he starts to teach, and he'll just forget about it.

...dude! Haha, I think a girl is no reason to go to church. I once went to a church because of a girl, yeah she went to a religious school, and it was her graduation. I hated every second of it. And I was glad no one really talked to me or even acknowledge my existence....EVEN MY GIRLFRIEND!!!! Yeah, I haven't seen her in like 2 years, that bitch.

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timedragon, I don't know you, but what you are doing is really retarded. When I was in high school, I would see the occasional little shit who tried to look cool by not saying the pledge. However, if they lived outside of America, they'd be pissing their pants non-stop. I don't have too much of a love it or leave it attitude, but for people to live here and not respect it is a total contradiction. Especially since they wouldn't last a day without America spoon-feeding them everything.

Basically, if you don't appreciate this country, then you should leave. But you won't cause America pampers you. You may not agree with the President, the local government, or anything, but you can still repsect the country.

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Darko, you are right, and i think you make a good point. With the ex. and other statements

Powersoft, I know that its not a good reason to go to church, but hey, you did it too, hehe

Guitar demon ...yeah, I should have spoke of the personal conflicts sooner, instead of leading some to believe i was just an idiot who was trying to cause trouble. I dont hate america. I see why you had put what you did in the first few posts you made. It was MY MISTAKE not make it clear that it is not america that i hate. It is these people! I insist, I am not their puppet.

I dont think you have caught on to my reason behind all of this. Really, i am not trying to look cool or rebellious. And I now am considering myself an idiot for not making my personal reasons of why i am diong this clear in the very beginning.

I think what we've found here is a paradoxial stream of thought concerning the constitution and the Pledge Of Allegiance. On one hand, the Pledge Of Allegiance requires you to pay respect to the freedoms you enjoy as an American. But on the other, the constitution allows you to speak, or not speak in this case, with complete freedom.

It's a situation with no ideal solution. Consider an analogy in the form of the sentence, "I am telling a lie now." No matter how much you think about that sentence you are telling a lie AND telling the truth at the same time. So in a way, being forced to make the Pledge Of Allegiance is infringing your rights as laid down in the constitution while not making the Pledge of Allegiance is saying that you don't agree with the constitution.

As for the church incident, you were absolutely right not to sing or praise. I think it would have been very hypocritical of you to do so if you, I assume, don't believe in God or the teachings of the church. It says a lot about the church that they are quite happy to promote hypocritical actions, afterall they've been doing it themselves for centuries.

One thing I remember from the Gospels is how Jesus brandished the religious leaders of his time, the Pharisees, hypocrits for taking advantage of people's religious beliefs and lining their own pockets. For instance, one could "buy" their way into Heaven by paying off the Pharisees. One look at the luxurious surroundings of the Vatican and I am compelled to ask what has changed in the last 2000 years?

If only the church were as true to it's values as you obviously are to yours, Timedragon.

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I agree with what john said about the church, notice my sig...I thought that should be a question EVERY christain should answer. They probably can't. Also why pray? If it changes God's mind then he is not sovereign. If it does not change God's mind then it is superfluous.
Except I don't see where you're going with the pledge part. You say the pledge requires you to alligence, of course it does, because that's what the word "pledge" is. But then again, your right to say that pledge....you must have just said it weird. And about your sentence, I see no lie in it. Or truth. At the time of the sentence, you're saying just that. Not a lie or a truth. It's just a sentence. I don't think YOU thought about it enough, and just needed something to write.

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whats this big deal about the pledge anyways? if you don't want to take it then don't.

as for your sig power soft error, the church has done a lot of great things for the believers, like clense our sins, (jezus dying) and freeing everyone from egypt, all that crap, remember bible class? (I don't so you see I'm full of it) anyways, that's all in perspective, you wouldn't even dare and ask that question if you'de where a christian.

oh, science has done a lot of good huh ? vx-gas, guns, a-bombs, you name it...

its all in perspective, but thats no reason to be a ignorant cunt.

I find this a very interesting conversation. I've been a Christian all 45 years of my life, but due to my job , haven't been to church in many years. I used to teach Sunday School ,too. I think what you experienced in that church was appalling. If someone had done that to me, it would have embarrassed me terribly and ,no doubt, turned me off to anything anyone might have said on the subject. It was completely uncalled for. It was showing a holier than thou attitude instead of the humility and patience that Christianity teaches. I do not agree with preaching at oeople anyway. I do not agree that any one religion is correct either. I know what I'm comfortable with and that's belief in the 10 Commandments, my belief in Jesus as my Saviour, and loving my neighbor as myself. Plain and simple. Obvisously the showboat was out to make himself and his congregation try to look better than you, but actually made a total ass out of them all. I'm in hopes that you don't consider all Christians that way. It's very narrow-minded to me. I'd let God be the judge of that though. Someday they may see the error in their ways.

As for the Pledge, we never recited it in Jr. High or High School. Some people are uncomfortable with the 'Godliness' of it, but that was the foundation we have followed from the beginning of white man's history here. I uphold it. Many people would say it needs to be thrown out due to their own religious or non-religious views, but I think since it was the society's foundation ,that is what we should value. I don't think it's a pass-the-buck view. Since you have expressed that it's the teacher that there's a problem with is there any way you could participate in the flag raising itself to show your respect? Maybe that isn't an option if it's left out in a lit area overnight.

My dad, my son Walpurgis, and his dad were all in the Navy and though Wally hasn't seen the world yet he's very aware of the suffering going on throughout the world. We are a beacon to be proud of. We aren't just the President or the Senate. We are a strong force and a nation of freedom's many don't have. Otherwise they wouldn't want to come here. In general our arms are opened wide to the oppressed. We were that at one time, too.

I hate to say it, but it seems you are still a minor so that could be a problem in itself. I understand your dilemma and I think your teacher may be as ignorant as that church guy from the sounds of it. He sounds like a power control type person. I do believe you should hae the right to do as you see fit as long as it isn't disruptive to the class. He seems to be disrupting more than you are.

Hey, it's the American way. Sue his butt for harrassment!!! And rock on.

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saying that doesn't make me an ignorant cunt. And yeah, perspective, we have tolets and I can talk to you on the internet, but then religous people battle each other and so for peace they prepare for war. That was my perspective. I remember bible school too, that happened, but none of the miracles are accounted for and throughout the bible, it tells it's own "science" which is really wrong. I don't mean to offend any christians here though.

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well, yeah, its not up to you to judge everything in the bible, it isn't up to religion freaks either, if you ask me, you see what you get just look at 9.11

now, THAT's another perspective, what I meant to imply was your signature:

'why has the church done so little good and so much harm in 2000 years, while science has demonstrated remarkable progress in only 500 years' I don't think you can compare the two, and if you do, its not a fair comparisson, both spawned death and destruction, just look at Israel today, science wise, you can think of many examples, the thing is, the people who use science to their wish often are the same that mess up for the rest. just look at what would happen if some crazy mofo got some VX gas into the NY metro system, just a really realistic scenario right there.

HAHAHA

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Bitching about America and not doing anything and bitching about America and activly trying to change it are two different things. I believe as long as you vote you shoudl be able to bitch about America and its problems all you want.

Sure in this vast world America IS the lesser of many evils, but why be satisfied? Why not strive for better? Why not make it so every child has healthcare? Why not crack down on the horrible problems of inner city crime? Why not try and lower the unemployment rate and huge deficit we are digging for ourselves? When you just sit there and take orders from the higher ups, never questioning, never critizing, its at that moment when, no matter if its a democracy or otherwise, it does turn to Totalitarism. You all can sit there and blind yourself to problems, following the contry blinding as your country rots from the inside. I for one will contine to question and always strive for something better. Doesnt being satisfied go against everything Capitalism is?

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true, over here America is called land of the free, home of the ignorant. guess why that is, there isn't much support for Bush's politics here, besides that everyone pretty much knows about America's trouble, most people here think: 'let them solve their own problems first before sticking their nose into other people's business'

I don't live in America so I have no idea how the situation is there, it just sounds stupid that some people don't take their kids to the hospital because they can't pay for it. Ofcourse the gang and criminal related stuff is what we all know America from, I guess it allways was a part of America due to the dangerous minorities and gun laws

Saying "the pledge of allegiance" and actually pledging your allegiance, are 2 different things
you can still pledge your allegiance to a country without reciting those stanzas.

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I still think no matter how you look at it though, it's a contradiction to not respect the country and still live there.

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i'm pretty enjoying my freedom here in holland.
and i'm enjoying it even more because this enjoyment isnt forced upon me

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Yeah I understand what you're saying, I was just saying my part. And yeah, I'm not into much politics anyways, so I sorta walk away from conversations that start with it. The only thing I have a say in is for american related problems involving human nature and the laws. Damn most of 'em are idiotic. But then again, we have laws because there was a dude that did it, and so it because of it, they think everyone will..yadda yadda yadda. Janet flashed everyone, assholes who care hated it and protested, and now the indecency fine is raised like 10x. Good ol' Texas, kids can now be tried as adults, because they commited crimes that are pretty serious. eh, I hate protesters.

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@powersofterror: makes you wish there was a dumb law against dumb laws, doesnt it?

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I think the Pledge of Allegience is so whored. Kids from pre-school till 12th grade have to say it every fucking day. How tedious? It looses its true meaning and value. It's brainwashing. Pre-schoolers don't know one damn thing about this nation and do not care what happens, so why make them say it? No way anyone of them will grasp the meaning. I think that is just apathy for what it means and gives that attitude "Who cares if they understand and/or bealive it, as long as they fallow it".

Pleding gets locked into our daily grooves of routine and kids stand like drones every morning saying it with a monotone voice. It gives them an impression that its boring and redundant. And if you don't want to do it, as I said before, then don't.

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I understand. But even if you look at it that way, there is no way i could support myself away from my family at this time. And it is impossible for anyone who cannot afford a move like that, whatever the details of the problems in doing that, though they may not be too comfortable here. Who knows, maybe someday i wont live in america. For now i am here. And i really dont have a problem with it, just a few minor details of it.

Darko: I agree, the kids dont even know what the pledge is or why they say it.

L,B'XXX: I understand what you are saying.

Anyone: I would also like to point out a little something I thought of the other day... I am not talking about everyone here, because there is no way i would really know, But, i believe that if the pledge was not held at the places that it is, some people wouldnt say it on a regular basis. It may not even cross their minds untill they see something patriotic happen and then are inspired, or whatever, to say it, i dont know. But, I know for a fact that my mother would not say it unless it was held at a meeting she says they say it at (this meeting contains children by the way). Which is a strage thing seeing as how KIDS have to recite it everyday at school, but once your out of highschool it doesnt even matter. Some may say the reason is that because it is being held you must do it to. So then where does the importance come in for those adults who think all these kids must be saying it! When do they say it on their own? Once again i am not talking about all people. But im sure it is true among some. Becuase i am sure plenty of "patriotic" people dont say it EVERY DAY. And asking people who arnt quite as patriotic to say it every day, though it probably doesnt even cross their mind most of the time, is not right.

I dont know how relevant my "thought" is, but at the moment it sounds like an ok detail to bring up.

My old high school teachers always said it, but I doubt they were "true" to it. They probably did it so as to set an example for us.

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i cant be fucked reading thorugh all this thread, but heres my quick coment

we can see how much americans really care about how their country is run by the voter turnout, something like 3% of the whole county isnt it?

i scaned a couple of posts and they said something about they dont like the way their country is run so the refuse to take the pledge, you have the right to make your opinion hered in the balot box on voting day, if you chose to forgoe that because you cant be bothered, then you dont have a right to be critical of the way that the country is run, because you have chosen to ignore the opportunity to say your mind. back in school i didnt really care too much about having to sing the national anthem when we had to do it, but reflecting i know that i am proud to be an australian, and i dont think that there is anywhere in the world that i would rather live, for the right to live here rather than in some shitty country with a dictator who forces the general populus to bend to his (lets face it, women are not dictators) twisted view of the way the world should be.

@Orange - ha ha ha, that was one of the funniest things ive seen in quite a while

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The sentence, while being just a sentence as you said, is a paradox. Maybe I worded it wrong. How about, "This sentence is a lie". Consider the sentence to be a lie, then it follows that it must also be true as one has professed it to be a lie. Conversely, consider the sentence to be true. If it is indeed true then the sentence holds it's original meaning and is a lie. It's hard to explain but almost by definition most paradoxes are.

What I was trying to say was that the sentence has very similar conotations with the situation arising from the Pledge of Allegiance. Being forced to take the Pledge is an infringement of the civil liberty that it promotes. But by not taking the Pledge, one could be accused of not professing one's support for the civil liberty that one is exercising by not saying it. In my opinion, this is a paradoxial situation brought about by being forced to take the Pledge.

I think timedragon brings up a good point. Why are children required to say it at school every day while adults may only say it once every blue moon? At the risk of answering my own question, maybe it is because children are impressionable and if they have a patriotic streak ingrained into them at an early age then they will remain loyal to America for the rest of their lives. Sort of like the Big Bad Wolf of brainwashing disguised as the Little Red Riding Hood of patriotism.

I still think that the Pledge is, in principal at least, a good thing. I also think that science is a good thing, or at least a better alternative to religion and I think that Powers' sig is a valid statement. I'm not trying to preach to anyone as I am perfectly happy for people to believe in whatever they want, but I believe in science for two main reasons:

1. Science has not to my knowledge started any war. Every war that I can think of has been a direct result of either religion, race or territorial disputes. Many of the scientific developments in warfare, such as deadly nerve agents and the A-bomb have been bourne out of nations striving to win or survive these wars.

2. Science has disproved many of the claims made in religion. One of the very basic postulates of (Christian) religion was that God placed Earth at the centre of the universe with everything revolving around us. This was disproved by Johannes Kepler 500 years ago. If a basic postulate of Einstein's Theory of Relativity was proved wrong would we keep it as a valid scientific theory? God is also said to have created us in his own image. Since it is proven that we descended from apes, does that mean God is an Ape? You can take it even further back: ALL life on this planet emerged from single-celled organisms, hence humans can trace their lineage back to them. Does that mean that God is a single-selled organism?

There are too many things that have been disproved by science for me to consider being a member of any religion. All you need to do is ask yourself one question: if a giant asteroid is on course to destroy the Earth and all God's creatures, would you place your faith in God or science to save us?

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yeah, you have a point there... fuck that, God won't save us, I think he would lead us to our (deserved) death.

though no man can really judge that you know, if you're not deep into religion you can't pick one above the other, its too easy to just say 'science' because.. I don't mean to be a christian freak here, but I guess you catch my drift.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I reckon all becomes clear when we die - either we pop our clogs to find St Peter welcoming us into heaven or, well, just nothing I guess. But we'll never truly know the answer to the God/science thing until we die. Hurray, something to look forward to in death!

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yeah, who knows I'll end out teaching Satan how to play slayer on his warlock

I thought Satan already taught Slayer everything they know!

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ahhhh, no no no no no no!!! An ape did not jump out of a tree and become a man, we are entirly DIFFERENT SPECIES!!! And god was NEVER a man or living creature. "He" was a thing, a being above our creature world, not alive nor dead. Jesus was a man.

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I didn't say that God was a living creature. I said that God created man in his own image.

You are correct in saying that we are an entirely different species now (even though apes and humans share something like 98% of the same DNA). However, man is descendent from apes, as stated in Darwin's Theory of Evolution.

The crux of the theory is that man evolved from apes over many thousands of generations - we simply just didn't appear from nowhere. Darwin worked backwards using anthropological evidence and placed apes at the origin of our species. Except to Creationists, this is a widely celebrated and accepted theory.

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god=victoria zemanova

victoria zemanova=god

so he's not male

I don't believe in darwin's evolution theory..

http://www.icr.org/pubs/btg-b/btg-149b.htm
check this out.
okay, you said we were created in the image of god...apes are living creatues...you said that in the post before hand. and in that post, "does that mean God is an Ape?" huh, sounds like you said He was a living creature to me.

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I don't want to digress, but its already happening so why not. Its a theory that we originated from a single-selled organism and then from an ape. You can't use that as a reason. It has never been proved.

Religion is hard to believe becasue it is made by man and is so fallable..but science too is made by man which makes it just as fallable. Which in turn, leads to a huge spiral of questions because everything is man made. So how can we trust anything?

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cause and effect.

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hmm....let's see where this takes me:

Islam isn't man-made

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of course it is. If man didnt create it then it wouldnt exist..

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Uh...it's not? How do you know that its true if it is written down by man.

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I may be drunk, but I'm remidedf of the quote by Ion in Jarassic park...god creates dinosaurs, man destroys god, man creates dinosaurs....oh, jejsus that's didn;t even make sense dir it??? Ehhh, I'll get beack to this later, whan I can see onlt 1 of each letter...hahaha.

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Ha, damn american Patriots, u see, if u were in Canada, there would be like, "Stand for the national Anthem" and we stand, and listen to it, that sit. God damn i love Canada, if i had to plege alliegence, id do it, than go kill the president....s cousins aunts Roomate dog.
Move to canada is the solution.

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Nobody can be sure if there is a god or satan, so dont go arguing ur asses off on, god being an ape or not, some people think there is (Christian) some dont (heathan, or Athest) so yeah...

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The point about a theory is that it is exactly just that, a theory. However different theories have different levels of acceptance. The reasons why Darwin's theory is widely accepted is because evolution has actually been observed in organisms that reproduce very fast and exhibit mutations within measurable time scales. But at the end of the day, it is a model that describes why Humans have changed over the last 2 million years or so.

Also, I believe theories can be used as reasons. For example, we could calculate exactly when a hypothetical rocket would arrive at a distant star from Einstein's Theory Of Relativity. Suppose after the rocket had arrived at the predicted date somebody asks how we knew that the rocket would get there at that time. As an answer, we point to Relativity only to be told that it is not a valid reason as it is only a theory and not a certainty. Madness!

Your second point is an interesting one. Both science and (all) religion are, of course, man-made. But the basis of the two disciplines are directly opposed. Religion is based entirely on faith and belief of something that we can't prove or measure. Science on the other hand deals with fact and actual evidence whether it be mathematical or a physical manifestation. This is a very important distinction and although science isn't infallable, at least we can test a theory's compatibility and choose whether to accept or reject it. With religion we are told to just accept it in blind faith.



I checked that link and I was familiar with it's content. I believe that it is just a case of finding the "missing link", even if Lucy doesn't turn out to be this link. This is the so called Holy Grail of Anthropology and as soon as it is found then Darwin's theory will be verified as a good model describing the origins of Humanity. I believe that it is a good model already.

I still find it hard to believe that many people do not believe that Humans are and have been evolving all the time. Take the last 2000 years. We know from Roman records that we are, on average, 2-3 inches taller now than we were 2000 years ago. Is this a coincidence? What I do know, is that an explaination has been provided by Evolution Theory. Whether people choose to believe this scientific explaination or in coincidences is entirely down to them, but I find it a compelling example.

Here's another example of evolution, only in a different form: the formation of this very planet. The Bible states that the Earth and all it's creatures were created in 6 days (with God resting on the 7th). Overwhelming evidence from physics tells a different story. We know for a fact that the Earth was not created in this timescale as astronomers can easily witness the various stages of planet/star formation throughout the night sky.

These stages don't occur over a timescale of days, it takes millions of years for planets to form and then millions more years for the conditions to be ideal for life to form. I wonder what Creationists have to say about that. In fairness, both sides tend to pick and choose their arguments, but I think I've highlighted that a couple of the very basic postulates of Christianity are fundamentally flawed.



Yeah, that'll be my wording again! It wasn't my intention to imply that God was or is a living creature. But surely if God did create us in his own image, he would have, and I use the term loosely, a physical form or else we would all just be "entities" ourselves. I apologise for interpreting the word of the Bible literally but there are many people who actually believe in God who do the same.

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I've only read pages 1 and 2, so I might be missing something.

I say, if you don't want to, for whatever reason, then don't.

What JohnMansley said in his first post ("A lot of other nations view the American sense of loyalty to their country with envy") is very alien to me. Most people I know would rather say disgust than envy there.
Americans seem to talk about pride in their country, but in my eyes it's not so much pride as it is arrogance about their country, and ignorance about other countries.

AFAIK, many people (americans in particular) consider the US to be the worlds best democracy. I fail to see how a democracy that is supposed to be better than all others can manage to discourage it's population to vote in such an effective manner as the US does. According to various sources (well informed American citisens, and various websites) turn out to presidential elections is about 25-40% (forgive me if that is wrong, but that is the figures I have seen). While a country like Sweden were getting scared when the turn out to the last corresponding election was as low as 80%.

Also, I think that way too many Americans know too little about the world around them to validate their "pride".

And for those who do not realise, what I'm trying to say and support here is that I do not support this Pledge of Allegiance. It appears to me that it is mostly empty words, or that when it's not, it's not well supported.

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I'm not so sure that having pride in one's country would be considered as arrogance or ignorance. They sound like very strong words to me and I certainly don't view the pride exhibited by a lot of Americans as arrogance or ignorance.

What I do consider as arrogance is a point that you touched on: the perceived ignorance of the rest of the world shown by Americans. I don't think that American's are as incapable on this subject as the media makes out though. However, a country is often judged by it's leader since he is elected by the public. OK, Bush rigged his way to power but one look at him tells anyone that he's not exactly blessed in any form of intelligence never mind geography.

I'm guessing that a lot of Americans are disillusioned with their country, especially considering such low turn outs in elections. Is this bourne out of the Bush administration or has it been building gradually over time?

Over here in the UK we also have low turn outs and a high level of disillsionment with the government, especially since the Iraq war. However, both of our nations (and many others) have got a lot to be proud of since we live in a society in which we are free from dictatorship. Many countries do not enjoy that privelege or even have the right to abstain from voting (that's if voting exists in the first place).

I think in the UK a Pledge Of Allegiance could work as long as it is not pledging to the Queen (it would probably cause more trouble than good if it were). I would pledge my allegiance to England and be proud to do so regardless of which political party was in power. It's a case of nationalistic pride rather than allegiance to a particular government. However, I can see how Americans would not feel proud considering the direction that Bush is taking their country.

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I find this topic to be very interesting, and I've not read every single post, but from what I've seen, as G_urr_A points out, people are victims of misperceptions. I am not a U.S. resident, I am Canadian, and I am not really proud of Canada, even if its ranked one of the 20 (i think) best countries to live in the world. I just think this whole nationalism thing deserves only one purpose, to breed war. Let me explain what I mean.
I'm sure a lot of people (Americans) are well informed about what's going on politically in the United States, but also elsewhere in the world where the United States have some influence or conflicts (Irak, Haiti, etc.), and have all the rights to do this Pledge of Allegiance, knowing what they actually pledge. But a lot of people are also unfamiliar which such issues, and just follow blindly some rules they've been raised with all their life. And I think this random nationalism can lead to a lot of conflicts, which could have been avoided if people had been willing to make the world a better place instead of defending at any costs opinions that are based on absolutely nothing.
Take for example, Palestine and Israel... their war is ancestral, and I'm absolutely aware of the fact that I'm now talking from exterior point of view, but still, if they would accept to put aside the intense nationalistic pride they carry, maybe things could start going better. But everyone know it's not that simple, and that it's easy to affirm such things, considering that I have both arms left on and that my whole family has not been killed by a bunch of crazy extremists.
Well, I hope I have made my point clear : everyone (of course!) have (or should have) the right to do what they want, but nationalism irritates me because a lot of people will use it as an argument to support their violent acts instead of using it to promote the culture and the history of their country.

By the way, I don't frequently speak or write in english, and I hope everything I wrote here is understandable. If not, just point me what's wrong and I'll correct it.

EDIT : johnmansley, I hadn't seen your post at the time I wrote this, and I think that when you say "I don't think that American's are as incapable on this subject as the media makes out though", well, it's still a fact that they don't teach international history in High school : they only teach American history (or am I wrong ?)

EDIT : also, Bush is a dick for using 11 september images to promote his electoral campaign. I think it shows a total lack of respect toward people that have been affected by this tragedy, and that are now seeing it used as a way to help a politician be elected. that kind of comportment makes me sick and I still hope that Bush hasn't really been elected by the population, that he just made his way to the top through various swindle and cheating. and I hope of course that it won't work again, because he really depresses me and gives a bad image to the whole american people. of course, it's only my opinion. sorry to people i offend with it.

Don't worry, you writing style is very elegant. Infinitely better than my French!

You make a good point with the Israel and Palestine situation and also with people who follow it blindly while not understanding any of what it means.

The thing to mention concerning the Israel/Palestine situation is that Palestinians still have not got an independent state to call their own and as a result they fiercely show their pride in being Palestinian as a way of proving that they should have their own nation. It's very complex over there but nationalistic pride does appear to be the driving force behind the troubles.

The more I read replies to the whole Pledging debate the more I'm starting to think that I am in the minority on this issue. I think one person has agreed with my original post so maybe the Pledge is a big issue with a lot of young Americans and not not just an isolated case. Maybe my pre-conception of the Pledge is ill-informed.

There has been a lot of discussion about the Pledge as it currently stands, but what would everyone like to see happen in the future? The right to not say it, a right that timedragon has found troublesome, or maybe a revamp of the Pledge? Maybe it needs to be updated for the modern age. What if the Pledge was scrapped, how would people feel about that?

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I'm not sure about the American History part, but if it's true then no wonder that Americans are perceived to know so little about the world. I always used to think that they just got taught American History and was very jealous that they only had to learn 500 years of history when I had to learn 2000 years! But yeah, maybe the curriculum should be widened to include some world history too.

I agree completely that Bush should not use 9/11 images in his election campaign. At best it's a cynical exploitation and at worst an absolutely deplorable and despicable act of self promotion. The man is a disgrace in my opinion and I don't hear many people supporting him so it makes me wonder how the hell he got into office in the first place.

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Bush is a total ass, he showed total disrespect to a lot of people, thanks to him a lot of europeans hate America, the smart ones just hate its politics...

I sure hope he doesn't get re-elected, what do you guys think? (actually, I can't understand people liking him in the first place!)

America is a good place to live and a great country, it's just that they've got an absolute idiot running the country. I can't stand him, his politics or his use of Iraq as a scapegoat for his inability to find Osama bin Laden. The way he sent American and British troops to their deaths in Iraq when he knew that he was a draft-dodger himself during Vietnam is one of the biggest acts of hypocrisy that I can remember.

The man is completely ignorant of world affairs which is evident in him allowing the US dollar to depreciate in value. It's great for people who want to buy products from America, but there are many European exporters who are feeling the pinch because of his gung-ho attitude towards exchange rates.

I'm with you, I hope that John Kerry gets the vote instead of that disgrace of a man Bush. We'll all have to cross our fingers though as no doubt he'll fix the election again. I truly can't think of one good thing to say about him.

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Well, there's a book by Michael Moore which explains in details every part of Bush's putsch to get access to presidency. I don't remember the exact title and, anyway, I've read it in french, but if you want to know more about it, just pm me and I could easily find the english title.
Basically, it has a lot to do with the fact that he's backed up by his whole family, financially as well as politically. A couple of things I read on the shit they made up was just increadible.



I think the last polls showed the Americans were like 45% in favor of Bush and 45% in favor of Kerry.
I found a funny link too.
http://www.independentsforkerry.org...h-vs-kerry.html
Of course, all of these are politicians promises, but still, it gives an idea of the stakes.

I dont really catch what you did write here. And I'd like to. All I understand is : you would kill the president of Canada (who doesn't exist) and your cousins, aunts, roomates and dog. And people, stop saying "move elsewhere" because to avoid problems won't solve anything. And if the guy's in High School, I strongly doubt his parents will permit him to just go take some vacancies in another country.

Oh yeah, and I read somewhere Bush was nominated for the Nobel Prize, along which Tony Blair. i know this forum is not intended for politics, but if anyone (and i think some of you do) think like me, here's a link to a petition. I think this is the dumbest nomination I've ever seen. It's a joke, and it ruins the value of Nobel Prizes.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/take...1078595173&sign[partnerID]=1&sign[memberID]=292847813&sign[partner_userID]=292847813

Yeah, I know someone who's got all of his books. He's offered to loan them to me on many of occasions but I've always declined. Maybe I'll ask him if I can borrow the one you're talking about. I respect Michael Moore greatly and I wish that there were more Americans willing to stand up and voice opinions of their government like he has.

That list in the link says it all - Bush doesn't care about anybody but himself.

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I got lost somewhere, who's Kerry, the opposition of Bush? Who else is running? When are the elections?

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Kerry has just beaten off the competition to become the Democratic presidential candidate to run against Bush. I think - if I'm remembering the last election correctly - that the election takes place in November. Whoever wins will be inaugurated into the White House in February 2005, I think.

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Damn you guys!! There seems to be so much said here. As if you have never had the chance to debate these feelings.

Anyway, somewhere up in that mess I read something about americans not being taught world history... Let me tell you, if we are, it is a damn poor job of it! I may not be the best student, but I dont know shit about other countries, and i dont think thats simply becuase it slipped my attention. In fact i would have been very open to learning about other countries, even more so then learning about mine, which i can do simply by watching the news!!! But I believe that it isnt taught, only the details of our country are taught. My last portion of history ended at the beginnig of 2004. So my history lessons are over (for high school) and high school will end in 2 months or so.

Spiritcrusher, you say...

"also, Bush is a dick for using 11 september images to promote his electoral campaign. I think it shows a total lack of respect toward people that have been affected by this tragedy, and that are now seeing it used as a way to help a politician be elected. that kind of comportment makes me sick and I still hope that Bush hasn't really been elected by the population, that he just made his way to the top through various swindle and cheating."

I agree completely on this as well as John!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortal_Lament
Ha, damn american Patriots, u see, if u were in Canada, there would be like, "Stand for the national Anthem" and we stand, and listen to it, that sit. God damn i love Canada, if i had to plege alliegence, id do it, than go kill the president....s cousins aunts Roomate dog.
Move to canada is the solution.



I dont really catch what you did write here. And I'd like to. All I understand is : you would kill the president of Canada (who doesn't exist) and your cousins, aunts, roomates and dog.

Hah, i just have to say, i laughed when reading this
I probably missed some of the posts here... sorry, they are so lengthy though!

In high school I was required to have a course called "World History." hmmm, and I learned a lot of world history. That was my junior year, in my freshman year, I took U.S. history.

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I do believe in evolution, but only to the point that we evolve within our own spieces. I don't believe that we came from apes, or that the Gorilla is related to the mushroom. I believe that we can evolve to adapt to our surroundings but only with in our own species.

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I understand what you're saying, but we must have had to have evolved from somewhere. Afterall, a new species can only come about by evolving from an old species by way of genetic mutation.

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I must have had a terrible teacher with a bad and ineffective lesson plan.
Yes, I just remembered. My world history teacher was a football coach, I dont think he gave a damn about teaching history to us...

My economics teacher was the softball coach. Oh, and my senior year was US govt. THAT was a cool class cause the teacher was awesome.

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Fuck America.

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that sums it all

it's not like your bound my imperial decree to say it.. you should just say " i dont believe in god" that should shut them up ( unless your a christian), but either ways, you dont have to pledge. they are violating your freedoms by forcing you to, it degrading you by making you stand outside. you should sue them nice and hard.

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Tony Soprano: You know, America is the only country in the world where the pursuit of happiness is guaranteed in writing.

Dr Melfi: It's the pursuit that's guaranteed.

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My opinion is you should say it. Or at least stand up and make it look like you are saying it.

I think if you cant do something as simple as that, you might want to choose a different country to live it.

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It may sound simple, but some people arnt so fast to let go of personal feelings as others may be. Moving to another country is , once again, not an option at this point.

Now, before further comments are made, if any at all. There has been a change. I am no longer a part of the teacher's class. And i do now stand in the new class to avoid repeating the same previous process. The issue i had was, as said before, not with the pledge, but more so the teacher. its over

Then your simply conforming to avoid confrintation. You can abstain from something but still show respect.

If you where at someones home who worshiped something you thought completely rediciouls and even offensive, would you still pray and worship with them? Probably not, and you would assumingly be kind about not participating and show respect. But the home that your in should also have the respect and decency to respect your beliefs, but as always, one of these fails.

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