Yes yes, specific title, but I thought I'd place it in chit-chat to allow us some floating space.

Now, I was talking to an old friend of mine - a truly accomplished funk bassist, not just some everyday oppinion-wanker - about music in general and metal came into the picture. That's when he commented that "metal guitarists seldom seem to have their own style, they have the genre's style". This was in no way meant to demean said group, he enjoys metal himself from time to time, but still.

Straight up, my reflex is to say "how dumb...". But is it? I know there are lots of people here who have listened to metal considerably much more than me and have better basis for oppinions.

So what do you say guys? Are we trying to spread out and do our own thing, or is it all for the genre?

__________________

same could be said of funk or "white man blues-rock"

this notion can also be compounded by the ability to not actual be serious in understanding the difference between metal bands.

i made similiar arguments against jazz music on a drumming forum a while back. i couldnt help but realize i wasnt that familiar with the current jazz scenes here and in europe. i knew i wasnt being fair and had to admit as such to that effect.

got like, 1500 word post rebuttals from many members there. many members were banned from that thread alone.......grown men....reduced to an angry mob ready to tar and feather the opposition.

__________________

Unless someone is completely trying to mimic another guitar player (Matt Heafy), a style of their own is inevitable in any genre.

__________________

i second that..though i don't know who matt heafy is or what you meant by that.

i don't think there is anything in music or other areas, that wasn't at least inspired by something that was already done by someone else. yes, there are some that take more directly from their inspirations than others..but that happens in every genre of music, art, movies, cars, etc.

I guess this poses the further question what exactly is somebodys OWN style? And who has one?

__________________

yeah, everything is in part derivitive, and there are some notable references to other guitarists in any music.

there is a difference between ripping-off and referencing.

referencing isnt in itself bad, its just a matter of the degree in which one does it.

being derivitive in a general way towards a genre is usually a safe bet with audiences, especially when it entails the fact you are essentially addressing folks who dress alike, think alike, and have an expectation, hold you to a standard of conformity to sounding like other shit.

metal is just as guilty as toeing the line as other genres, status quo exists.

but just look at how much metal changed in the last 20 years as compared to any other genre.................no comparison.......maybe when jazz made strides into be-pop,free form and fusion from the swing of the 20's, maybe that exeeded metal in some ways.

so yeah, same inescapable reality of slow, plagurized evolution.....but fuck, man, at least the evolution is there....at least people are taking risks , great risks.......some of this shit isnt even listenable, even to us.

so i agree in a general way of the sentiments expressed by that bass player given it applies to all music.......but i wonder about funk music, where has it gone, whats the evolution?, how far has it changed since it began?........i dont know

beyond the fact that hip-hop artists sample alot of old funk backbeats and sometimes has a full band accompanyment, i dont see where it, the music itself has changed.....then again i dont want to assume i know much about what i suspect is not a whole lot.

just something to ponder.

__________________

i think their are only a handfull of metal guitarsist who actuay have their own style, but most bands just seem to play in a genre style, as your funky bassist friend sayd.

this is also sortof opinion based, but personaly i think most metalbands are as inspirationless (sp?) as a piece of poop, their are a few bands that actualy do sumtin else and are creative and original, but thats just a few imo

__________________

Someone's "own style" in metal would be that of the traditional sound (maybe tunned low with heavy, smashing distortion) but with a certain twist, idea, sound, or technique that is commonly done enough to give that guitarist's sound its own individual identity.

I think that its obvious that certain guitarists most definitely have their own style and stray from the normal "CHUNK CHUNKA CHUNK CHUNK, WEEE" stereotype. This is true for all genres and for all musicians in them; its just that unfortunately, boring imitators far out number innovators and that most often superficial examinations of a genre are blinded by the former, which his why you mostly have people not really familiar with metal critisizing its monotony (which, is often fair).

I can think of specific examples that most of us are probably, at least somewhat, familiar with: Luc Lemay (Gorguts), without a doubt, has a very unique style of playing that seperates him from the normal metal writing/sound forumla. He incorporates some twisted, yet catchy dissonance in his riffs while incorporating the sound of someone taking powertools to his guitar leaving the listeners scratching their heads, thinking "what the fuck?". He also does it well. Jon Levasseur (Cryptopsy) also has a pretty signature writing style who's riffs makes me imagine some frantic lunatic expressing his psychosis through a speaker. Chuck Schuldiner's genious, emotional, and uplifting solos..and so forth. Compare these people to the norm, say, Muhammed Suiçmez for instance who seems to think that lots of poorly strung together riffs spaced awkwardly around fancy monotonous sweeps covers up the fact that his ideas and songs are really quit boring.

But I don't think that simply because a guitarist isn't doing some ground breaking work or has a sound that sticks out like a sore thumb equates a bad band or guitarist. A lot of my favorite bands aren't fantastic musicians, but they have the cardinal ability to write well and successfully convey an emotion, idea, etc in the form of music. Musicians naturally seperate the instruments from the big picture to analyze them, but they also have to be aware that we don't become too distracted and miss the big picture.

to me the "inspired bands" are hate eternal and gorguts, and Trey Azagthoth has his style, but i feel like he doesn't put much efort into songs. Like on gateways to annhilation.

Oh and cannibal corpse has to have a style because so many bands are modeled after them, they started that sound

__________________

Hes the frontman of trivium

__________________

People that tune wierd sometimes have a tendency to have their own style.

__________________

Thought experiment:

You get a simple chord structure, bits and pieces of a riff pattern, a half-idea at best.

You get a stack of guitarists to finish it off into a piece of music, from different bits and pieces of metal. Steve Vai, John Petrucci, Fatty Malmsteen, Herman Li, Zakk Wylde, Kerry King, Scott Hull, Luke Jaeger and resurrect Chuck S. and Randy Rhodes for good measure. Others in this thread too.

Most likely you would be instantly able to tell who was playing what.

Now, let's get messy with definitions. Does the 'style' designate what rig they use, how they compose their music, how they play other people's music, or is it entirely confined to mechanics, how they play...? Do chord structures and progressions count?

And what happens if we swap the compositions within the performers? Will the fact that they do small things differently (picking, harmonics, whatever) differentiate them from the composers' own performance?

What if we determine that they should copy the original style of the music exactly? Will there still be signs?

Conclusion: fuck this question.

__________________

Finally!!! Someone who knows what they're talking about!!!

__________________

Yes, I did expect it to be something along these lines. But you never know.

FBS, I'm quite partial to your conclusion, however it is to this end that I appreciate these answers and the discussion. I did felt it was as unfair a remark as it would in just about any genre, but didn't have much fact to back it up with.

But as I said, floating space. I imagine in this case it was song/riff-writing that was the actual subject. And I gather that the answer is the typical of all music - there's a big heap of crap with an unnerving ability to reproduce itself, but also a fair amount of flowers and other interesting plants only using the crap for nourishment to create something individual.
Anyone care to list some more unknown types fitting in the plant and flower category?

__________________

@FBS - "fatty" malmsteen!

This arguement goes for any genre of music btw

Damn, I would write a really long answer to this, but I can't be bothered, lots of the main things have been said already. But in terms of writing songs/ structures, etc, there be almost indefinate ways to write a song. Especially when the writer takes influence from other genres/ areas of music, even down to the scales used, key changes, etc. This all defines the players own style, as it's their way of writing songs!

That being said, back to the point of sounding like other players/ bands/ songs... I think that it's possible to write a song in your own style, but it could sound like this song in places and like that band in other places, but that would only be from a listener who has experienced a lot of music from the same genre, and they'd only hear the influences because they're listening out for something familiar that they can relate to themselves. Anyways, I'm not done, but I don't want to type anymore cos I'm going out!

FBS thats definately the path that i was kinda leaning towards. I mean who decides who does and who doesn't have style?

I'm sure somebody could "mimic" somebodys style of playing but you would have to (i imagine) intentionally do the things that FBS said, such as picking, harmonic style and all that stuff which seems irrational.

It seems even the less experienced and less "famous" guitarists can still probably put their own chips into the pile as it comes to their own style.

__________________

Damn, when you say METAL thats such a large subject matter. I mean do you see how many Metal subgenres there are? To my knowlege all sound very different. Death Metal, Thrash Metal, 80's Hair metal, Nu-Metal....So yes METAL is very diverse.

__________________

good call, fuckin hetfield wanna be.

__________________

In general of course they do.
I suggest your friend is spouting cliches...

a real musician knows his observation is worthless.

the last few posts have really strayed off topic.
of course the metal genres each have their own style, but the question was "do individual guitarists in metal" have a style.
Personally I dont see it much in alot of guitarists, outside of necrophagist and john petrucci...(I dont care if you dont think dream theater is metal or not...it is) but as far ways of writing a song, there are plenty of diversities in metal, such as opeth...and nile. You really dont see too many variations in modern mainstream groups, or hardly anything but a slap bass line and off beat chords in funk. So maybe your friend should listen to more metal before just making statements like that.

__________________

thank you darko, Muhammed Make Bad Song

does any one else think he...... has bad tone?

__________________

Yeah that may be so but maybe mainstream groups have their own style and variations, and same with funk.

__________________

exactly, its like apples and oranges.
If you dont know and understand the style, and listen to it regularly, then you will make assumptions like that.

__________________

Regardless of whether the assumptions are "false" because of lack of knowledge I think its worth questioning whether or not there is much style out there and varience. Just because we know songs as different for probably subtle reasons doesn't remove it from being a kind of carbon copies of its genre.

This doesn't neccesarily say this is a lack of variation or style, just saying that maybe we need to stop "kidding ourselves" about the intrication and all that kind of crap of metal music. I'd go on a limb to say that nearly everybody who listens to metal calls it "harder to play" and more intriguing because of its "difficult riffs" and all that. But anyways thats all off topic.

__________________

well, I will admit.
Most death and black metal is pretty much the same.
But Thats the same for every genre and sub genre.
Once in awhile you get a band like primus, dream theater, or gwar that really breaks the mould and goes out of its way to be different.

I really dont care how much you guys think gwar sucks...im just making a point.

__________________

i don't know who thinks gwar sucks, but i think they're pretty cool haha.

I agree, but i also don't see it as negative as some might see bands being similar in genres and so on.

__________________

yeah, most people on this thread hate gwar, personally I think they stand for a good cause.

__________________

You're retarded.
I'm convinced.

huh?
why are you always so bitter?

__________________

Do metal guitarists have individual styles? Yes, with the same ratio as every other genre. If you think that most blues, jazz, rock, classical, etc guitarists don't sound the same, with a comparatively few excellent players standing apart from the crowd, then you've got real problems. Very few genres of music have a position for lead guitar that doesn't entail excellence and individuality within incredibly narrow parameters.

Everyone who plays an instrument has their own style of playing.

__________________

Bad and less bad...

Surly we can put it behind us that metal should be different in the mimic/original-ratio, lets move on. The "problem" here is a bit uncooperative to be catched in words, but anyways.
All the various subgenres of metal are, as a general rule, very distinct. However, working from the statement in the beginning, whatever metalriff or song you pick out you could give to any metal guitarist with sufficent skill and he/she would play it pretty much the same.
My reflex - just fucking dumb to say. But yet again, being realistic, is it? To give an example to what "individual style" can mean - Emppu Vuorinen has a very distinct way of going positively berzerk in many songs when he plays them live, straying far out away from the recordings. Yet he still plays the same riffs and the same song. He just makes them more... his.
Within another genre I'm closely familiar with, hip-hop (no, not what you see on MTV) the strive to do things with your own style is one of the most central aspects, be it breaking, DJ:ing, the MC or the graffiti painters. To give some more recent input from me bassie friend who inadvertedly started this discussion, the strive among metal guitarist should be more or less the opposite. That is, somehow we should feel it more important to master the techniques and, here it comes again, styles that's already out there than find our own way of doing it from the start.
Once again, looking into our hearts and the metal music we enjoy, do you find this to be misinformed bullshit or not?

__________________

See, but graf writing, for example, still has national or local styles into which the various writers all fit, still working within defined limits with some showing more and most less originality. The same is true of most MC's and DJ's, since it's much more difficult to innovate than it is to copy and the majority of the people who even try for the former still end up doing the latter (in all endeavors).

Now, while it is true that we as a fan group seem to have placed a certain value on a certain, narrowly-defined type of technical proficiency for lead guitar and, for the most part (this much less so) demand riffs following certain set conventions, the conventions aren't more overdetermined than in most other genres. A blues guitarist may not spend half of a solo sweep picking; a jazz guitarist can't spend an entire solo bending and unbending a single note; a funk bassist may not simply double the guitar; etc. Genres by definition have self-enforced conventions, and people who play within them stick to the rules, whether they be metal guitarists or graffiti writers. So the question can be whether metal guitarists show some individuality within the customs they've adopted, and whether this or that one may have broken with or shifted them, to which my answer remains the same. But it can't be 'metal guitarists have conventions! They all play in minor scales! How can there be any individuality?'

Of course, I would appreciate more conscious playing with the rules. But there's little of that anywhere.

I guess I'm a bit spoilt with the DJ:s and graffiti painters I know personally. But I like the way you put it. Has a tad more than "that's just fucking dumb".

Now, I can't help to be a little curious, since we're into the subject... what do people around on this forum do when you want to put a personal touch on something? Your own works yes, but perhaps even more when interpreting someone elses song. Added harmonics? More bends? Something with the rythm? And can anyone give examples of guitarists with, shall we say, tell-tale techniques?

__________________

NOBODY plays like me (or wants to!) so I don't worry about it.

__________________

I think if you get good enough at writing songs you sort of automatically develop your own style, whatever that might be. Dimebag had a habit of using pentatonic scales, off rhythms, and lots of pauses in his riffs, and of course squeals, just to name some of his style. Trey Azagthoth has some weird ass fucked up riffs, that at the same time sound catchy, and that's a lot of his style. And as far as how do I learn other peoples songs? I basically keep it the same. What's the point in learning a song if you're just gonna make it sound different than how it should?

__________________

This is kinda what i was asking. What defines individual style as it relates to "genre" specific music.

Maybe we've already answered part or most of the answer already. Such as harmonics, more or less, or differenb ends, different individual rhythms. Maybe those are just some that definately qualify and quantify having your own style.

I know when i'm doing solos i often have kind of a set way of going about it just naturally which features exactly all those "techniques" that you mentioned. Obviously those other "more intovative" better guitarists don't have such a "carbon copy" type of style or maybe its just more progressed and more varied.

Couldn't it also be said that you can generally tell what band is what based off a few notes or a short clip of the music even having never heard the song before? (even within subgenres) Via, vocal sound, guitar sound, bass , and drum sounds? So maybe its similar for an individual musician as it is to an entire band.

I mean for instance the way black dahlia murder writes (this is completely just off the top of my head example) they almost always write things in F harmonic minor and C harmonic minor and they have a certain way of playing those scales that i could pick their music out in a heart beat just off the compositional style that they have.

I guess also off that example i ask, isn't the composition of music a type of STYLE in itself? It seems by the making music and trading hands has completely irradicated this belief and so i ask why?

__________________

just finished reading the thread. i do believe there are distinct individual styles, which do spread into other musicians, and many of them move on to form their own styles, some not. of coarse, it is easy to say there are individual styles when you say "compare power metal and death metal", but even in one genre, there are individual styles. if you take two bands from the same genre, then find one who does lots of tremolo, then find one who does little or none. the difference in style is obvious. that may not cover a wide range, but then you can add whether they do harmonics, bends, slides, etc.

as for your question above. when i play the works of others, i tend to add slide ins/outs, hammer ons/offs and harmonics. i suppose it makes it more fun for me. sometimes i'll add notes as well.

humm...metal guitarists have their genres style? idk, you can get the attitude of a guitarist like Yngwie Malmsteen, with a really cocky attitude, and his playing style questionably 'AMAZING!'. and then you can also get a bad ass-loud mouth like Alexi Laiho, or someone sober like Steve Vai, or Petrucci...

metal is so huge that you can get enough guitarists with their own style. i mean, metal itself is no paticular genre simply coz there are tons of genres WITHIN metal. and also, if metal was to be difined, there wont be one word defination. if you beg to argue, what 'loud' is metal?

how bout this, Gothic metal is METAL, as is Black metal. there is no paticular similarity between them, yet they are metal none the less.

Hell no.

There are few people in the metal scene that can hold their own "original" sound with the guitar. A LOT of metal guitarist sound the same. Especially in the blues genre...theres a small handful of blues musicians that have a signature sound (SRV, Hendrix, Elmore James, W.C. Handy, Johnny Winter, Gary moore, Albert King, Albert Collins, Johnny Copeland). With every genre you're gonna have people that try to imitate others musical ideas....which is why I said in a different topic "think of bands as inspiration for music and don't think of bands as thats what musics all about". I quoted myself...I'll drink to that

SLAAAAAYER

__________________

I don't think we can really know for sure how many of the guitarists we listen to have their own style without sitting in every time they practice. I for one play all kinds of different shit in my practicing, yet if I were writing for a band I'd probably want to play brutal death metal. I wouldn't want to play brutal death metal that also sounds like bluegrass though. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate bluegrass. But that's me. Being experimental in songwriting is more of a reflection of the music as a whole, what a band thinks should be for that particular project, not just the individual's style.

__________________

Having an individual style isn't necessarily a matter of introducing some genre diversity into the music. You can have an individual style while playing within all the constraints of your genre - even if it is brutal death. Or maybe you can't; that's the question being asked in this thread. You seem to think that you can't. I believe that you can, but the nature of the beast is that few do. In any case, it doesn't entail playing brutal death that sounds like bluegrass; that's completely irrelevant.

i think this is a pretty lame question.

are people different?

yes. i think its as simple as that as far as im concerned. noone will learn exactly the sane way and noone is going to think exactly the same and everyone will adapt an individual style. like artists. people go to art school and get taught in a classroom of 20 other peeps. none of their art is gonna be exactly the same though,

having a drum style, a distinct sound, is tough as well.

since there is a complete overlap of of whats happening from a rythymn standpoint.



i think with "metal" guitar playing, what i see is lacking is a focus or a cognizant approach to strumming patterns......basically not rythymically playing the same things over and over again.

there is a preoccupation with the theory, scale, combination of notes being varied from song to song....which is cool, but not enough attention is given to change the context of the rythymn of those notes. so you got a simple 2 and 4 beat behind every song that may sound different. something to ponder over i guess.

another thing is the interplay between both hands on a guitar, alot of guitarists seem disciplined where both hands are tightly locked in coordinated movement<most metal sounds really stiff and "assembled" on endless 16 note patterns>. piano players learn full hand independence, much greater in extend to what drummers do. guitarists can take note from that.

a good example of my point is the slap/pick bass style alot of funk guys do.......not saying guitarists have to get that crazy to find thier own sound, its just both hands can create an interesting foundation when they are viewed as having percussive qualities.

so take this as a drummers perspective on what may help in finding a distinct sound.

__________________

I thought you would have given up on this by now, but here was some interesting input.
To tell you the truth, Infinity, I think that is a very optimistic way of looking at it. Sorry to say, I really wish you were right, but whenever I spend ten minutes listening to the radio the whole idea gets thrown out the window.

low-tech, that was a pretty good idea. An example would maybe be the main riff in AC/DC's Back in black?

__________________

well i think its impossible for someone to exactly and i mean 100% clone someone elses style so that difference makes them individual

i think ozzy summed it best when he said, "for most guitar players, the guitar is extension of the penis, Randy is an extention of his guitar."

So as long as you got a penis of your own, you're all set and prepped with a style of your own? I'm not a woman or homosexual, but I think that is a general dream seldom come true.



Now we're splitting hairs. But that in itself hardly makes for individuality with meaning, does it? I've heard countless artists doing disco music and glam hip hop... they are clones, because that's what their producers have decided that people want.

__________________

Why are you comparing to disco and rap when you ask about metal guitarists?

And obviously if you're talking about these clones are the works of the producer, then in fact it is not the artists work but the producers

After reading this i feel truly confused at what you're trying to convey. Just from what i'm seeing and interpreting from your post, i don't see how you could say an instrument which requires 2 hands to play as one to do anything of the sort, without completely changing some extreme things with playing.

For instance.

You see alot of these acoustic guitar players that play like 2 hand taps and hit the acoustic guitar and all that noise. You've had to have seem what i'm talking about, these "amazing" guitarists who completely "shred" up acoustic guitars playing it completely unorthodox like. I don't see how this can be encorporated into we'll say metal without you having to be a completely "god at guitar" and or just changing what metal is, probably making it not metal.

I guess from this i ask you maybe to embelish your idea a lil so i can have a better chance at getting it.

__________________

Insignificant differences don't matter (by definition). Beyond that, if you're attempting to copy somebody and fail in some slight and barely distinguishable way, that failure is not really to your credit. If, for example, you're trying to sweep like whoever the fuck, but you can't sweep so cleanly, then slightly sloppy sweeping is not your individual style. It's a sloppy copy of somebody else's style. Just like a photocopy with the slight distortions caused by the machine is still not a different picture.

Hehe, true, true. But what PST said is true, also in a somewhat wider sense. Like it or not, conforming and copying is our default setting in the vast majority of all that we do - a personl style in music is a product of hard work or inate talent or a shitload of luck; usually in a mix. So wether or not you sound exactly like anyone else isn't of any interest.
Except, perhaps, in the matter of radio-pop and MTV-hiphop... as proof for a thesis.

__________________

Unless you've lived a feral life and not been exposed to anything I think you're going to be copying someone somewhere regardless of what it is.

__________________