http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

I really enjoyed this as I've been more and more annoyed with recent metal releases that have no dynamics in volume at all. I never understood why but I hate the sound and I even made a post awhile back about it in the bands forum. Now I have my answer.

When I saw recent metal releases I'm referring to things like Hate Eternal - "I, Monarch", Cryptopsy - "Once Was Not", Misery Index - "Discordia". This is also quite relevant as we have been seeing a pretty steady stream of re-mastered re-released metal albums that come out pretty terribly (Megadeth?).

Just open up Nero wave editor and check out something from one of the albums I mentioned above, it's just one giant solid green block.

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its the whole "digitally remastered" scam

mix levels are just the tip of iceberg. i could go on and on about triggers,loop/cut and paste editing with recording software, auto tone detecters for vocals and any number of cosmetic enhancement to music.

metal bands are one of the worst offenders when it comes to bigger label recordings. most of the relapse catalogue is like this. this stuff is destroying real discipline with drum technique and actually learning dynamic control<one of the biggest aspects to acoustic instruments and music in general>.

its why i always digged low-fi or a recording setup that reflects what you hear live, no tricks, no doubling the vocals and guitar when it cant be done live. its also why i like bands that can do stuff with volume,feeling, bands that arent metrodome perfect.

forget recording and think about how many albums that are a technique display of status quo orientated oneupmanship, much like the fusion scene of the 80's. where the music can be summed up as stuff written to incorperate solo technique<sweeping and various finger acrobatics>, gravity blasts and any number of hard to do drum patterns and rudiments.

many elements of metal is turning into fusion, musicians music, music that cant stand up to repeat listening because its almost mechanical in delivery and does not convey any emotional depth.

i was just expaining this shit to some friends today and im sure they think im a cynical bastard.

i like feedback, i like slightly out of tune dissonance, i like drummers who play like humans not drum machines and i like straight forward music thats compositionally strong. i do like some technical bands, but the whole faster!,more brutal!, more complex!, more aggressive!,louder! vibe wears thin real easy.

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Whatdya say, sonny, I can't hear ya? Too much bass from my headphones in the 70's! Made me a little deaf.

Yeah, it's raining here, too.

(Figure it out!)

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Oh dear heavens. It doesn't matter what, if it's destructive, greedy or dumb, people have been doing it for ages.

I actually didn't know this before, but I still can't say I get it. Exactly what is so important about having a mentally induced higher volume in the recording? If I like the music I turn the volume up, if I don't like it, it won't matter if they're making me believe it's louder than an artillerypiece.

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No surprise.

I'm not like low-tech, in that I appreciate it when a band knows how to use the studio like an instrument to create things that couldn't be reproduced live but are nevertheless very rewarding musically and artistically. However, that doesn't include simply raising the volume and using modern technology to let the band be lazy and pretend they can play their instruments much better than they can, so in what pisses me off I'm very much like low-tech. I'd like a bit of real ambition (it's gotten confused with empty instrumental hypercompetence), so it's very disappointing to see the incredible technology out there that could allow for so many cool experiments being used to let bands cheat. And, actually, the last album I can think of that did cool things with the studio was done analog.

A lot of fusion can stand up to repeat listenings (well, a handful of the very best bands). It's just the chaff that can't, because, just like any other genre, fusion has a handful of bands making worthwhile music and a bunch of empty, mechanical imitators. For whatever reason, though, there's something much more disgusting about overblown and hypercompetent emptiness than about simple, basic emptiness. I'm assuming it's in part because we associate 'simple' with 'earnest' when it often isn't, but it's also obviously just that so much musical talent on display for no reason is just such a goddamn waste.

But it's till over my head WHAT they're hoping to gain simply from raising the volume.

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From the link provided:

'The main reason for this practice is that when comparing two CDs of differing levels, it is likely that the louder one will be regarded as sounding better. This can partly be attributed to the way in which the human ear responds to sound pressure at different levels, as its frequency response will change according to differences in sound pressure level (SPL), with the listener perceiving a greater amount of low and high frequency content as SPL increases.[1][2] Music with higher levels is also more easily heard and understood in noisy environments such as in a car, on a train, or a busy city. Higher levels can also result in subjectively better sounding recordings on low quality reproduction systems, such as web audio formats, AM radio, mono television and telephones. Artists also tend to prefer that their mastered CDs match the loudness of top contemporary CDs.'

All sorts of good reasons for doing it, from an industry standpoint. You can even see it in discussions here; anytime somebody's asked to say what the heaviest music is, it's almost invariably the most obnoxiously loudly produced.

The first album that popped into my head after reading that article was Death - The Sound of Perseverence.

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Really? SoP? Although it may be the sharpest sounding of the catalogue I don't think it sounds all that processed, or, "loud".

I understand where people are coming from that are totally against this, that extremely polished and over done music lacks dynamics and sounds fake but I also think that simply because too much of it is a bad thing doesn't mean that it should be completely thrown out. There could be a happy medium of "loudness" and "rawness" and I think SoP may be regarded as a decent example.

Interesting...

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Campared to all the other death albums it is definately the loudest one with the crispiest guitar sound.
Compare these four examples:

the interlude solo of Scavenger and Voice of the soul
compared to
Without Judgement (slow part after the solo) and Sacred Serenity (slow part after the solo)

On the symbolic songs, it feels like to me that there is a huge difference in dynamic during these parts. It just sounds lighter and softer than the solo part. In the SoP songs there is no difference and I feel like the lead guitar alone is the same dynamic/volume as the whole band together.

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recording is definitely an art, no doubt. in experimental situations, triggers can be used to good effect. i had a roomate who used triggers, the whole drumkit.....but utilized for sounds acoustic drum could not do and NOT to compensate for volume, in those cases its cool for me, i dont object.

i can understand the "studio album" aspect where recording techniques can supercede what a live performance can do......but for my preference, i think the live show is the standard from which a recording should be faithful....capturing what happens live is whats important,IMO.

i know that a recording is considered the standard because its what leaves the greatest impact on the mind....you see the band maybe once or twice a year or maybe once in a lifetime, but the recording is what you are most familiar with. the reality of this arrangement is a bummer, in a sense. but im more into live shows and local bands anyway so my stance kinda works out for me.

i also like smaller shows utilizing reasonable gear, not arena rock PAs that are 15,000$ and up and dozens of marshall stacks, everything fed thru leads and mixed on a mother brain, spat back out thru speakers,compressed,mixed and boosted to sound like the album.

another thing is seeing a live show that differs from the album in a good way, songs reworked post de facto, songs done with a different mood, interpreted differently,different sound quality from different gear, slight alterations that make that particular show unique. the "proffessionalism" kinda spoils the fun when you just reproduce the product like a mcdonalds hamburger, methodically obeying what the album does in every detail.

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It is definitely the "loudest" compared to the others, but when I read the article the meaning of "loudness" struck me as something far more processed than SoP. We must have had different reactions to the article.

Just another reason that old thrash is the best

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So i compared your examples. A few times over. I'm not sure what the problem with voice of the soul in comparison to the others? Its a completely different type of song and mood its attempting to present than the others. Imo.

Without judgements part seems more.. of the like serious, solemn feel
Sacred Serenity gives the feel of well serenity
Voice of the soul well i'm having a hard time placing some words on it

Although i can clearly see what you mean by it, but i'm guess i'm confused on why its so negative?

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I always thought of Suffocation not being a "loud" band. Practically every song I've heard(a lot..steve's a huge fan) the drums overpower the weak guitar volume.

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That - contrasts, contrasts, contrasts, as a friend of mine in the theatre business always says. It might not win over the audience at first glance, but essential if you want to make something meaningful.
Could this kind of cheap trick be a main reason to mainstream radio pop being mainstream radio?

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One thing is that to make a studio recording that sounds like a live show, you can't just record the shit exactly as-is (just like a movie spaceship has to make noise in a vacuum for us to find the travel or battle 'real'). I'm not going to pretend to know a lot about recording but I've heard a lot of records where people recorded shit just the way they would live and everything sounds much, much thinner and weaker than their live show. So, I'd think, you have to do something that's not true to the spirit of a live show in order to do something that's true to the sound of one.

In any case, I think we're on the same page in that we want something that's not being much delivered.

Of course. The trouble, from an economical point of view, of any good metal band - or most good bands and artist anywhere anytime - is that though their work may go through the shops to the fans faster than chiliconcarne through a short grandmother, it's often a matter of years between the albums. Money can't be the sole driving factor if you want to create lasting, meaningful art.

And I don't have much experience of proffessional recording either, but art as art: In theatre, a very basic rule is that being natural on stage takes much unnatural work. To continue on this parallell, just raising volume in a recording gives me the same kind of vibes as a stand-up comedian spicing up lack of punches with cursewords.

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the production can be good, im not anti-digital, not even anti-software like protools<only when guitar riffs and drums are looped and the various cut and paste tricks are used>, im not even against syncronized<drums first, each member recorded seperate,then mixed> recording with a mic on each drum, each cab.

so what i mean by the live show being the standard is, every sound you hear, someone can do it at a show. even if the band used a sequencer and alot of sampled sounds.

when bands have only one guitarist and double track guitars, for a record thats being released.....when a singer doubles vocals that he cant do unless he has two heads. i think its a bit dishonest.

as far as the sound quality itself, its not like im against EQing everything, possibly compressing vocals, using alot of mics and generally having a mixed sound that the quality itself would sound better than most live shows.......there is no predicting what you are gonna sound like live, because each venue is different, different quality PA, if at all, the acoustics of the room can severely vary from place to place.

so im more into recording "live", the band playing simultaniously in a studio as if it was a live show. you are not gonna get the same crisp quality as a syncronized recording, but i believe, you capture the energy better.

so im not talking a precise reindition of a live show, just play as good as you can in terms of what each member does, not extra added stuff, no tricks, no hearing the same idenical drumbeat that has been looped and sequenced to imitate the drummer. no over compressing then boosting everything so it sounds flat<like what the article demonstrated>under the guise its been remastered.

to me, its the difference between some tv make-up and cosmetic surgery on par with a face lift.

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im not really understanding what you are saying.

all i saying is alot of bands record on a level that cant be reproduced live, or if they can...it takes some serious equipment to reproduce it.

so in theatre, its like watching a recording of a play where some characters voices are overdubbed entirely and the background is all cgi enhanced. then that theatre troupe does a tour and you see them live and there is obviously no cgi and the characters who had overdubs are hammy actors who have bad delivery.

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Well, as we've seen this loudness race infringe on the dynamics of the recording, and all the examples you've given all lead to a mechanised product with no contrast or dynamic variation.

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Ok i've thought a lil more on this topic and i'm not 100% sure if it said.

But i would imagine one reason for the streamlined and less "dynamic" music is it feels like you can get into it much more. In the sense that it usually has much fuller bass and more "feeling" to it. (not feeling like emotions, dynamics, but more thickness)

It appears over time the increase in bass has been completely desired for all types of music. Hell look at everybody putting in the nasty craziest 12in and 15inch speakers in their cars. Music that isn't setup as is now is very unappealing to listen to in a setting as such.

Thoughts?

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Well, it's got 'thickness' like a supermodel in a 20lb fat suit and glasses has 'ugliness,' dig?

I don't know about you but i've done a fair share of recording in my time. And also am into music where there is only ONE guitarist. One guitar track completely and utterly sounds like pure shit. Period. And like PST 88 said as well as Amadeus in order for it to make it sound decient you have to do some certain things. I'm a person that loves live shows but absolutely can't stand listening to live versions of songs UNLESS they are somebody like Iron Maiden whos live is fairly similar to their studio. (speaking of rock in rio specifically).

Low-Tech honestly i think if you were to listen to the music you "think" you like you'd probably change your mind. I'm not refering to reappearing drum loops I'm more talking about removing layers of sound in order to produce a quality recording.

Heres a question for you. what do you think about people like myself who produce their own music all by themselves? I play drums, bass, vocals, and play multiple guitars in every song i do. Are you saying that my music is any less worthy of being listened to or "respected" just because i can't do all at the same time? I mean seriously. Its not like i'm "unable to play" anything i put. Even when 90% of the time i'm using a planned out drum beat from fruity loops.

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If you were to use your studio equpiment to reduce noise and errors caused by lack of ability with the instrument, or try to pump up lack of ideas with a sexy photo model in a 20lb fatsuit and glasses, then yes. That's what I'm, and as far as I can see both PST and low-tech is getting at. It's just so damn annoying to practice your instruments year after year and then see some worthless poser rise to glory solely because of advanced recording gear and a collective hard-on for fast cash.

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self recording is different, thats not my concern, its not why i feel this way about recording. i used to syncronize stuff on a 4 track myself and i dont expect anyone to live at an impossible standard of what they can do at one time.

or like, in the case of making a demo where you are in an incomplete band situation, guitarist and drummer, to add additional tracks of bass and second guitar. to me, its just as long as you are pursuing other members to fill those roles live.

im more refering to an end result of stuff on an album which a band doesnt live up to in a live show, which in the case of alot of death metal and grind bands....they cant possibly live up to.......this has most to do with the drummer.

so most of my objections have to do with institutional standards with triggers and very expensive PA's that compensate for volume. drummers tend to tap what is supposed to be a loud blast......i think its lame.


i like alot of stuff that is, or at least i suspect is, this way. i like nile for instance, but i dont think any of thier drummers could play as well without the trigger and i dont think thier live show would live up thier recordings, i heard such criticism before about them so my views arent unfounded.

ive also heard examples of drummers doing well beyond what i expected, with just house PA mics, nothing against PA's but theres a difference between owning a couple grand worth of PA gear, travelling with it and being able to play your stuff decently with house PA's or god forbid, places that dont have them<granted bands like nile are well into 1000+ venues and that capacity would be an impossiblity for them to be heard by everyone without the joint being rigged up>

ive just heard bands with a house PA and they still suck, drummers all drowned out because they taps, no volume control, they piddle-paddle the double kick real soft......its a joke.

this is where im real critical of bands, its the mortal sins, doubling guitar tracks or vocal, to me, is not nearly as bad.....and again some of my favorite bands does this so its not like ill boycott a band over this stuff. i dont mean to sound like minimalist recording nazi or anything.......this stuff kinda bugs me and i prefer a "live" recording<all members playing together> than syncronized and overproduced.

some live shows are just as dishonest as recordings, case in point, i watch a rollin stones concert where there was like 5 guitarists on stage<celebrity rockstar guests and all that>.....reason for this? there is so many layers that if anyone fucks up, you cant hear it. what the fuck is that??? its like watching the tour de france and all the riders have training wheels on.

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haha nice example at the end of your post.

Well see i guess i see where you are coming from... As i gather you are looking more at the fact that you go see a live band and they just aren't as good as a cd.

Well i can understand that and i haven't really experienced that personally. I'm still at odds with your double tracking of guitars because every band has done this for forever and a day (even if it the same guitar with multiple mics). Now the vocals... eh i can kinda agree with you for the most part on this. If you listen to a cd and the singer sounds kick ass and you get live and you think he fucking blows, theres a problem there. Definately i couldn't agree with you more.

I guess what it is, (as i see it) is we most definaetyl listen to very different music and refering to very different music because i don't listen to any bands that would remotely need triggers or any added shit to get their drums loud enough or whatever. Or even bands that can't play live the stuff they record EXCEPT for 3 piece punk bands that obviously when they do a solo there isn't rhythm behind the solo (other than the bass) when played live.

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