i have to do a research paper in my "philosophy of religion" class. my problem is i don't know what to do mine on. my teacher is pretty easy going and said he will probably allow pretty much anything that falls under this particular category.

i've thought about doing "how certain fallacies have led to the jeudo-christian conception of god," which the teacher thought was a good start, but i didn't know where to go from there.

i need your help either by suggesting interesting topics or by helping me elaborate on the topic i already have.

thanks guys. try to keep the "cunt-esque" activity to a minimum in this particular thread.

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I have a paper due ion my... philosophy and morality class due on friday haha. I'd like to help, but luckily we have topics to pick from. I'm picking probably the explaining how this one guys ideas really suck and how its just more or less full of shit. I gotta write 4-5 pages though.. sux

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mine is a 10 page research paper due at the end of the semester. i gotta get started.


tm.......which guy?

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Which fallacies? The ones Spinoza pointed out? The ones Nietzsche pointed out? etc.

Your premise begs questions. Ask them. Answer them. Then you'll probably have a paper. A fairly unoriginal paper, sure, but a paper.

I hate that one guy.

PST, care to elaborate the ones spinoza and neitzsche pointed out?


i'm also considering doing something involving "the concept of faith"

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do something on dinosaurs. they didn't worship God so he created man to kill them.

Good point! Just like the Vikings...EXACTLY LIKE THE VIKINGS.


And aliens.

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Its on this guy named Singer. And his opinion on how we should all.. give our money away verybody on the globe until everybody is equal. And how this will end world hunger and famine.. blah blah blah. So highly unrealistic.. that its just a dumb idea.

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Peter Singer, the Animal Liberation dude? Rule of thumb: Australian philosophers tend to suck donkey dong.

Spinoza believed in an all-encompassing 'god or nature' that's basically the universe's self-sustaining life force, and thought it a contemptible and indefensible idea that god would actually be essentially a giant and omnipotent version of any given human being.

Nietzsche's critique basically places the creation of God as a byproduct of ressentiment, a frustration the inferior feel due to their comparison to the superior that leads to their subverting more natural qualities of 'good' and 'bad' and changing them to 'good' and 'evil,' making much of what was considered good (specifically excellent qualities) into evils along the way and thereby encouraging the lions to lay down to their chains. From this viewpoint, most of the people responsible for spreading Christianity disseminated a bad conscience among the strong to convince them voluntarily to be weak, using the promise of God and the divided afterlife as a carrot.

But, really, you should look this up yourself. It won't be hard to find a better parse of both viewpoints than I can give off the top of my head here. And you should really answer the first and most obvious question: Which 'certain fallacies'?

Just an idea, and this is one I like to point out to religious nuts of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic stripe when I run across them....

1) How exactly can you believe in prophecy (Jesus was destined to die on the cross, the end times are coming, etc., etc., etc...) and at the same time blame people for their shortcomings (so to speak) by saying that god gave you 'free will'? Determinism and Free Will can not coexist. Either you are predestined to fuck your girlfriend in the ass, or you choose to do so. (Though, I'm sure she'd have something to say about it.) It can't be both.

A couple of others:

2) How can an omnipotent and omniscient god be 'good' and still allow evil to exist? If he knows exactly what is going to happen forever and he created everything, then he is also responsible for evil and therefore, is evil himself. If that is the case, then how could a human be blamed for a 'sin' when it is god's fault in the first place?

3) If the bible is 100% true and must be taken literally, then why does it contain Unicorns, Giants, zombies, talking donkeys and dragons?

4) There's also the extremely flawed 'Pascal's Wager' which religious nuts love to throw around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager The basic idea is, 'we don't know if there is a god or not. Since there is a chance there might be a god, let's at least pretend that there is, this way he won't be pissed at us for not believing in him'. Of course this illogical idea prompts the question - what kind of god would respect a person for believing in him just to cover your ass? Especially an all knowing god?

5) Can you say 2000 years of bloodshed and horror?

6) How is it that the religion of a tribe of barbarians has managed to last thousands of years, spawning other barbarian religions?
(Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain (That Smile was unintentional, I had a : and then a ) . Ha, fuck it. It looks funny there.) http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/2.html

For a good laugh, see: http://www.thebricktestament.com/

Just some ideas. Sorry for the overlong, rambling post. This happens to be a subject of great interest to me. If I can help out in any way, email me at ludd_one@yahoo.com

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Peter singer yep thats the guy. I need to write this paper, but i'm way too unmotivated to do anything at this moment in time.

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Determinism can exist in special cases even if the norm is free will. No contradiction there if you really understand the concepts. The usual and better formulation of the same question is: If God knows everything that's going to happen because he lives in one eternal present moment with no past or future, then how can it be said that we have free will?

#6 is pretty dumb. #2 doesn't really matter if you understand the Judeo-Christian concept of God. #3's a joke when you should be serious. There would've been 2000 years of bloodshed and horror regardless. The world wouldn't be all sunshine and happiness if only Christ hadn't been listened to. You got Pascal's Wager right, though.

You can at least have a paragraph on how there have been tons of different gods in mankind's history. Like "what makes the concept of teh Islamic/christian god any more valid than zeus &friends who are categorized as MYTHology"

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NO, number three is not a joke. It is true.

UNICORNS IN THE BIBLE:
Num 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib
Job 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Psa 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like [the horn of] an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.

GIANTS IN THE BIBLE:
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
Num 13:33 And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, [which come] of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
Deu 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead [was] a bedstead of iron; [is] it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits [was] the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.
Numerous others.

Zombies in the Bible:
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
Jhn 12:17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
Act 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
See: Resurrection of JESUS

Talking Donkeys in the Bible:
Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
Num 22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
Num 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

Dragons in the Bible:
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Numerous others.

Try actually reading the bible before you go around saying what is and isn't a joke.

And just how the fuck is 6 pretty dumb? Have you ever read the Old Testament? Do you know what the Israelites were doing when they were running around in the desert? They were slaughtering anyone who didn't worship their god. But again try reading the fucking bible before you form an opinion of it.
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)



I didn't say the world would have been Mr. Roger's Neighborhood with out these barbaric religions. You are glossing over the fact that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic cult is responsible for more wars, butchery, intollerance, destruction of other cultures and flat out evil than any other force that the human race has ever been cursed with.

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First of all, not all of those translations are entirely accurate (the unicorn in most of those quotes seems to be an ox, which would also give them more sense of them than they have now). If you're going to suggest I read the Bible, I'm going to suggest you read more than one. Secondly, neither Lazarus nor Jesus are zombies; if you know what a zombie is, you shouldn't make this mistake. Third, considering the types of big reptiles out there still, it shouldn't be surprising they spoke of 'dragons.' Who the hell knows what they were? I concede talking donkeys and giants, but my point wasn't that you were being inaccurate. My point was that your complaint was a dumb joke, and it still is.

#2 is still incredibly stupid. Are you supposed to be shaming them because Jews were violent way back when everybody was? Oooooooooh. Great thinking. You might as well ask why a bunch of barbarous people had a bunch of children that had more children, one of whom ended up being a dumb shit on an internet site.

I'm not glossing over the fact that religion has been responsible for thousands of deaths; I'm highlighting the fact that, if it hadn't been the cause, something else would have. Every barbarous act a people committed in the name of the Judeo-Christian god was matched by the ones committed when they weren't Jews, Christians, or Muslims. It's in most peoples' natures to be violent, and blaming the mask under which it was committed when the real cause is elsewhere is stupid, like pretending it was magic Nazis and not Germans responsible for everything done during WWII. Nice story, but it doesn't work.

Most Christians, except for the ones that live around and in my state, recognize that the bible should nto be taken literaly and is merely a collection of parables and fables to emphasize a greater meaning. Like, in real life a tortoise would never be able to outrun a hare, but the point of that damn story is to show what happens when hardwork perseveres over laziness. ( I know that is not in the bible, but it is a fable that comes to mind so shut up.) The bible does have a bunch of stuff in it that is completely unreal and impossible, but what it does is try to tie all these stories together to the idea of being nice to everyone else and being good. Having said that, people have fucked it up pretty nicely over history, both by being stupid and taking it literaly or perverting it into something that is wrong. Its like if I took the lyrics of some death songs literaly and said "this is a confession by the singer. Listen to all this stuff he did to this poor girl! He stripped Raped and Strangled her to death!" But being a little smarter, I know it is imagery just for the sake of imagery or has a political meaning or something else that is not to be taken literaly.

EDIT- whenver "The Dragon" is mentioned in the bible, it means satan. chalk that one up to one of his dozens of aliases.

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I figure Ludd's talking about fundamentalists and literalists, though I don't know of any quite so extreme as the ones he's describing. There are a surprising number of shades of fundamentalism.

The first thing I thought of in the context of unicorns was a goat as I've seen one that did have a single horn in the middle of it's head.
I agree that you can't base everything on one biblical translation.

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I wrote a childrens book about the donner party...does that count?
Im also doing a diaramma of a few lovecraft stories

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You can mention that most arguments put forward by the christian church they considered definite "proof" of the existence of God make sense when you hear them at first, but with some basic going over make no sense whatsoever. Such as the cosmological argument ("everything has a cause, and therefore the primal cause must be God") which fails due to the ambiguity of the word "everything" and several other factors. I don't usually have any interest in philosophy of religion, but most modern "Introduction To Logic" books and websites (formal and informal logic) use arguments for the existence of God as examples of some basic falacies. That doesn't mean that there is proof that God doesn't exist, (can't prove a negative, lack of proof of the existence of something is not proof of it's non-existence) but it definitely opens your eyes to how far some people can go to convince somewhat-logical-but-not-quite-there people that God exists.

About the many pseudonyms of Satan - Satan is a combination of many other deities that people worshiped at the time, their names hi-jacked in order to discredit them and their worshipers.

1) And here is the same absurd argument you always get 'you're reading it out of context.' Blah, blah, blah. Bullshit.

First, this is from the King James Version of the Bible, which, as you may be aware, a large majority (non-Catholic) of Christians take as 'the very word of god'.

Second, the next thing you hear when you bring up unicorns in either:

A) no, it was some sort of Middle Eastern rhino (Ha!) they were talking about

or

B) no, it was some animal that lived back then that went extinct. (And the evidence for this animal is...where?)

OR

C) oh, it's an OX when in other parts of the bible they are clearly talking about a fucking OX:

Exd 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox [shall be] quit. (KING JAMES VERSION)

Point being ... IT'S MYTHOLOGY.



2) I have read more than one. Here's an idea, before you start arguing from ignorance and recite a bunch of crap you learned in Theology 101 why don't you try reading ONE of them.



3) I'm guessing you actually believe in all of this nonsense in the first place if you believe that zombies are real.



4) First off learn to fucking read. I didn't say anything about the Hebrews in #2. If you are going to try and debate me at least have the fucking courtesy to read the shit you are very poorly attacking.
Second, as far as the Ancient Hebrews go, they are by far NOT the only tribe of barbarians that went around murdering people in the name of their fake god. I never said that. The point I was making is that they are by far the most successful barbarian tribe of all times. In a way I give a grudging respect to them. But don't come at me with that 'you're not allowed to say anything about the Hebrews because that's just wrong' bullshit. I'm not talking about modern day Jews. I'm talking about their ancestors.



And stop talking about your stupid ass like that.



5) Here's an idea... and seriously, I mean this from the bottom of my heart...shut the fuck up and read some history. You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Thousands of people? Do you think the moon is like 100 miles away? Do you have any concept of big things? I bet it would only take us a couple of minutes to walk to China? Really, honestly, seriously, just shut the fuck up.



6) Oh WOW, really? I had no idea. You mean other people murdered people for no reason too??? I can't believe it. That's unbelievable. I had no idea.



7) No, there is no such thing as 'human nature'. Human nature is the bullshit excuse people come up with after the fact so they don't have to feel responsible for their horror.
"I can't help killing people in the name of god....it must be human nature. The devil made me do it. I can't help it. Human nature."
People are violent because they are trained to be violent. Take some kid in the ghetto and raise him in a rich neighborhood and he'll become a stockbroker. Leave him in the ghetto he'll be a violent gangster. Humans have outgrown that cavemen mentality it only exists because that violent streak will serve the powers that be when they need soldiers.
(PS Go sign up to fight in IRAQ if you believe that it's in most people's nature to be violent.)



8) Oh of course! The German people just FELT like slaughtering millions of people. They had nothing better to do, so they just ran around Europe killing people for sport. You know, there was no false ideology or political movement pushing them into it or anything.
Here's an idea, go tell that to my next-door neighbor who was conscripted by the German army in the 40s because they stuck his wife in a Concentration Camp. Tell him that it was the Germans out killing people for sport. Of course, the Nazis had nothing to do with it. RETARD.

About 6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[9]
1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[10]
500,000–1.2 million Serbs killed by Croat Nazis
200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti
200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
80,000–200,000 Freemasons [11]
100,000 communists
10,000–25,000 homosexual men
2,500-5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses [12]

What Germans do on the weekend.

It's a good thing I didn't bother bringing up the Inquisition or the Witch Hunts. You'd probably chalk that up to European peasants on holiday.

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The King James Bible, which was compiled by dozens, if not hundreds, of writers during the years of King James's reign, which is a period known for the infidelity of its literary translations, and which is famously inaccurate concerning the original Greek and Hebrew? Wow. I'm so impressed with your scholarship that I could shit myself. It's popular because the English is pretty, not because it's a good translation, you fucking moron. It's an ox. Different people translated different parts of the King James Bible; this is a widely documented fact. Read something. Read something. Read something. Read something.

I don't believe in any of this shit; I'm more of an atheist than almost anybody you can find, and I can tear apart the most sophisticated Christian arguments (not idiotic strawmen I toy with for my pleasure) with ease. I make Plantinga look like a fucking fool. That said, a zombie is a fictional concept with a specific meaning. If you don't understand its meaning, don't use the word.

Yes, you were saying something about the Hebrews in #6; first of all, because they're the original 'tribe of barbarians,' and second because your quotation from Deuteronomy, shock of all shocks, describes the ancient Hebrews. If you're going to claim I didn't read your point, at least don't have the audacity to include within that point a quotation relating to a specific people you claim not to mention. But, regardless, pointing out that people from a time when everyone was barbaric by today's standards were barbaric by today's standards is idiotic and does nothing to enhance your point.

And I'll talk about your ignorant ass however I damn well please until you make a point that's true enough to shut me up.

Human nature has nothing to do with what you claim. There is such a thing as human nature. Humans act in a particular way; it's quantifiable. It's what they do. We call it 'human nature.' Italians during the pagan Roman times were as brutal and hypocritical as they were during the Renaissance; pre-Muslim Arabs were as brutal and Draconian as after. The most brutal parts of German history are distinctly pagan. Etc. Religion isn't to blame; it's the excuse we hold up to hide our own nature from ourselves. Unfortunately, we're violent assholes, and the only way we'll ever deal with it is if we stop blaming our pretenses and start blaming ourselves.

The 'it was Nazis, not Germans' response in most Americans is a result of our government's attempts to rehabilitate the national characters of Germany and Japan after WWII for political ends. The scary fact is that regular, everyday Germans are capable of committing atrocities without a significant mental shift; it's a part of who they are. Not a part that comes out very often, but a part. And the scariest fact is that regular, everyday Germans are a cunt's hair apart from regular, everday Americans. Blaming Nazis is like blaming fairies.

Hey... here's a good way to write your paper - have it as a hostile dialogue between two cunts on the internet. Cut and paste, anyone?



Eh?

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This is literally the funniest thing i've probably ever read.

Brokencrimson you make an interesting point. There is alot of people who use pseudo logic in order to back up their faith. I just say.. "whatever man" and go about my buisness. Fuck em.

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i love being that guy who is the only one who recognizes his posts or even thinks they are good.

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so... when are we getting married again???

Using deductive logic, a subtle enough mind can prove anything.

On another note, the main thrust of my point is that you can't confront anything if you don't first respect the intelligence of the people promoting it, second understand it thoroughly from within, and then come up with a real counter. Too many people tilt at symptoms and ignore roots.

alright, i'm bringing this topic back becasue, well i started my paper and i only have a few more weeks.

anyway, the topic is " is faith in God rational?"

articles i have already read:

Alvin Plantinga "Is belief in God properly basic?"

William James "The reality of the Unseen"

Any other suggestions on articles or good websites to browse for philosophy information?

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templar knights. i did a paper on them about 4 years ago for history of civ in college and my teacher loved it. history, controversy, war, etc. lots to cover in one subject.

Ha, I have to do an argumentative essay on why metal is the best form of music. I don't know if I should be funny or serious.

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Look for some papers on the neurobiology of mystical experience using TMS, or on the 'religious brain'. Occam's Fucking Razor, cunts.

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Don't use Plantinga. He's respectable, but an insufferable cunt. Write about how modal logic is phrenology.

i say go the route of ufo conspiracy.

we are engineered and our habits are studied.


our ultimate goal as a species is that we will breed with the alien and produce offspring that will be used as cheap labor somewhere............out in the great cosmos.

definately at least mention the pyramids in mexico and egypt are made by aliens, i mean, no cult worth a damn would pass that one up.

id probably get an F in your class,but i would go out in style..

im more interested in the wierd religion stuff like scientology,evangelicals who run thier churches like corporations,those wierd monk dudes who raise thier hands and do so to the extent that the arm atrophies and becomes paralyzed, cults like the nation of islam<one of the first ufo cults>,the moonies,the amish,the quakers,the israelites<those parliment funkadelic black dudes who used to hang out around times square in nyc and profess the white man is the devil>. the whole "cult of personality" thing that i consider sometimes more extreme than the ethos of religion.

so that would be my focus of study, if i studied religion and philosophy.

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couldn't agree more and that is why i am attacking his argument. comparing faith in god to a pain in your knee is kind of a trivialization of the whole concept of God.... good attempt though. still quite flawed in my opinion.




thanks. what does the acroymn TMS stand for, though?


for anyone interested, my teacher showed me an amazing AND ACCURATE online encyclopedia of philosophy. http://plato.stanford.edu/

articles are actually edited unlike wikipedia

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