are there any particular rules to follow when composing polyrhythms? I think they add alot to the music but when I'm constructing one I can never get it to sync up just right with itself. bach and beethoven used them all the time, but I just can't get it to work for shit. Also, I'm into the dissonant chords that the jesus lizard, discordant axis and obscura era gorguts used, but no matter how much I try, I just can't seem to get the shape down. Hopefully someone here can help. thanks.

Diads should give you plenty of dissonance but for the main part,
chords are constructed from notes in the relative scale (for example,
G is formed from notes in the G major scale) so adding a note to a
chord that isn't in the relative scale should give a dissonant tone.

Some common diads are:

-------------------
-4--5--6--8--5--
-5--5--5--5--7--
-------------------

Dino from Fear Factory incorporated many examples of these into his
playing. Check out Replica from Demanufacture for an example of this.
Hung and Bled from Gore Obsessed (Cannibal Corpse) is another good
example of how diads can be used to create dissonance. I hope you
find this helpful!

__________________

Sounds like you just should use some diminished type stuff to me. Half-Whole scale gives nice eerie stuff if you are looking for that. Some chromatic type are cool to. I love to arpeggiate this crap:


D|--3--1--1--1--4--1
A|--2--2--3--3--2--1
E|--1--3--5--2--1--0


Umm sorry if it's not what you meant

^^^ Those are pretty good examples of dissonant chords. x2xAtreyux2x is right, just fuck around with the diminished and inverted-diminished scales to get some fucked up chords.

Polyrhythms are a little more complex though. Morbid Angel's heretic album
is chock full of them but I think it's very hard to construct decent sounding
polyrhythms. I would recommend you adopt an approach similar to constructing a solo, ie, stick to the notes in the scale. Also, if you've got one riff in 16ths try not to play the polyrhythm in 16ths at first as it will only sound too muddy. Slow it down or add some triplets or other embelishments like trills.

Essentially you need to decide which notes you want to emphasize and make them the same in both of the rhythm parts. What you do in between is down to you. Here's a simple example (it should all line up if you copy and paste into notepad):

Gtr.1 (16ths)

A|-----5555------55-|
E|-3333----332233---|

Gtr.2 (8ths)

A|-----5-----------|
E|-2-3---2-0-2-3-5-|
. . . . . . . .

I hope that this is of some help.

__________________

I think I understand as far as dissonant chords go. So do these chords have actual names? Or does a chord require some kind of consonance to warrant a name? About the polyrhythms, that was the only way I could get it to work was to keep both lines within the same scale, but for some reason I had thought true polyrhythms were completely opposite from each other (as in scale and other wise) but when used in tandem, complemented each other to form a multitextural rhythm line that made sense. I guess my ultimate goal was to create a polyrhythm using two dissonant chord shapes, one from each dissonant chord shape scale pattern, and combining them to get a dissonant sounding polyrhythm, all the while still keeping a sense of tonality and not breaking down into mush. Is this too mad scientist or will it work? Thanks guys for all your help. By the way, how is the heretic album? I had heard a bad review somewhere but when it comes to morbid angel (easily in my top 5 bands) I find that most nay sayers don't know what the fuck they are talking about and are unable to follow music once it surpasses your standard mtv 3 chord rock progression.

Yep, sounds a little mad scientist to me, lol! Very complex idea but I guess if you persevere with it you'll get a rewarding polyrhythm out of it. However I was always under the impression that it was the same scale being used but with a different ryhthm ("poly" derives from the Greek for many).

I've not really paid much attention to whether dissonant chords have names, I just like the way they sound. I think that diads have got names but I can't remember them! As for chords constructed from the diminished or inverted-diminished scales, I'm not sure of their names but I presume they'll be on the lines of B dim 4 (etc) or something like that.

I've seen a few bad reviews of Heretic (Terrorizer in the UK only gave it 6.5) but for the main I think it's been well received. The bad reviews have tended to use Altars Of Madness or Blessed Are The Sick as a yard stick and then compare Heretic to them. Those are two classic death metal albums and not many albums can compare to them so I find it all a little unfair to compare Heretic to them and then rip it to peices. Morbid Angel have moved on from those albums so why can't the music press?

I personally think that Heretic is a great album and well worth investing in because every time I listen to it I hear something new. OK, it isn't as good as their 1st 3 albums but, judging Heretic on it's own merits, it's still a damn good album.

__________________

Back to the polyrhythms, what you could do is use, for example, the major scale and another scale that is contained within it. For instance, the Egyptian scale is contained within the major scale (see below). So theoretically you could have a western sounding rhythm playing on one guitar and an eastern sounding rhythm on the other that still utilizes the notes of the major scale.

E major

E|--0--2--3--5--7--8--10--12--|

E Egyptian

E|--0--2--5--7--10--12--|

This is the only example that springs to my mind instantly but I'm pretty sure there are many more examples out there.

__________________

man, you're probably right about the polyrhthms following the same scale. and i think pretty much all chords do have names, even if there is no discernable root, like the diminished chords. i just wish i had more theory under my belt. i plan on buying heretic as soon as i have the money. i just spent a shitload on books for next semester. i'm sure the cd is worth buying. thanks for the egyptian scale polyrhythm. it sounds great even farther up the neck. oh yeah, the mithras cd i got is pretty good. i didnt like it at first because i thought it was just a bunch of pretentious bullshit (you'll understand what I mean if you listen to it), but it's starting to grow on me. i don't like the vocals, but then i never started listening to death metal because of the vocals. i really hardly even know they are there any more because i'm listening too closely trying to cop riffs. the one thing you will notice is the drumming. if you hear the cd, let me know if you think it's a drum machine and these guys are putting us on, or if the dude is really that scarily talented.

Thanks man, I'll go buy it. I like really fast drumming so it should be worth it.

__________________

Just got Mithras in the post yesterday and the album is pretty good.

The drumming though, fuck me! Those drum rolls are fast as fuck! The sound they get reminds a lot of Morbid Angel on Heretic, especially the drum and guitars although the vocals seem a little weird for a death metal band. The drumming definitely reminded me of Pete Sandoval's on Heretic, very similar sound in the production also. Don't think it's a drum machine though coz Leon Macey gets credited with playing percussion and they mention what drums he plays in the sleeve notes.

Anyway, I like the album so thanks for recommending it to me!

__________________

i highly doubt they use drum machines, maybe a digital drumset, but not a sampler type deal. some drummers have digital triggers on their acoustic sets to make it like an acoustic/digital setup, and then from there they can enhance/fuck with their sound, like a light echo, or some added reverb,ect. i've seen some amazing shit from drummers so i wouldnt be supprised if what you guys are talking about isnt a fast set sampler, but a real person.

__________________

derelict question here, but what is a polyrhythm? i know poly = many, obviously, but what exactly does that mean? like mixing 2 riffs together? i've never really been into the death metal, so i dont have any of those cds. is it basically trying to keep track of two riffs at the same time? jumping back and forth between the two?

hmm i thought it was just a different note structure for 2 riffs in the same time signature, like say, in 4/4 time, playing 16ths and 8ths, but i dunno music theory is still a litle weak on my side.

__________________

shouldn't you always have 16ths and 8ths and quarters in the same riff? :P the same timing for each note is boring.

try to find the Gorguts Instructional Video (on Soul seek or on the Ftp, I uploaded it in the "Video" folder), Luc Lemay talks about those in it.

more info on polyrhythms:
http://www.vai.com/LittleBlackDots/tempomental.html

__________________

That's some fucked up shit right there in that link!

Oh yeah, McTriple, do you like Black Sabbath or Metallica? I was trying to think of a polyrhythm example that you'd know but all I could come up with was these two.

They use the same idea as a 2-riff polyrhythm but in solos. Check out the War Pigs solo by Sabbath. During parts of it, Tony Iommi plays two different lead lines that "fit" together but are different in their construction. Metallica do a similar thing in the solo for The Four Horsemen.

It sounds weird but what you get is an overall impression of whats going on (it could be an impression of descent through a scale, etc) but as you listen closer the parts become apparant and distinct. For me, it adds a lot of flavour and keeps the listener on their toes.

__________________

hah i was listening to war pigs as i read this post yah old metallica and black sabbath, etc is more the style of metal that i'm into. excellent, i think i've got a good idea now.

Every chord has an "actual" name. It depends on the notes/degrees it uses. Major chords use 1, 3 and 5 out of a Major scale. A G Major would mean the 1 will be G, the 3 will be B, and the 5 will be D (figure that out by using a G Major scale). This all leads to different voicings (combinations) and what not. As for what those chords I posted are, they are mostly stuff I thought up on the spot. A few are diminished (1, flat 3, flat 5).

BTW everyone, polyrhythm is the fact that you have duple against triple. Having the guitar 1 play 16ths while guitar 2 plays 8ths is NOT polyrhythm. Polyrythm would be when guitar 1 plays 8ths while guitar 2 plays triplets. Most drummers do it very well but as for guitarists...please count.

haha sorry about the old thread...

EDIT: This may help I just found it...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcz/Polyrhythm.html

__________________