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Old 2003-10-08, 16:57
Dr. Ummer
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Question Unbreakable cymbals?

A while back, I heard something about Paiste making some unbreakable cymbals. Does anyone know anything about that? I imagine if they claim they're unbreakable, you can probably still break them but Paiste will replace them for free or something. If so, I just might have to replace all my Zildjian Z customs with some "unbreakable" Paistes.
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Old 2003-10-30, 22:05
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I have never heard such a thing like that. I doubt it though man, and if they do then why would you switch yours out? You never know if they could sound shitty.
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Old 2003-11-07, 01:36
xdislexicx
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you can break any cymbal, some just take more work, most high end cymbals usually wont break as easily, i have paistes, they're the best cymbals out there in my humble opinion,but they can still break(i'm not gonna test em though), ziljians and sabians are good too, but just about everybody has their favorites .
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Old 2004-02-13, 14:31
MaidenCanada
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Zildjian recently made some Titanium cymbals, but i still dont think they would be unbreakable, its only a coating.
 
Old 2004-03-01, 21:57
xdislexicx
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fuck!!!!! i cracked my paiste signature series 18" thin china!, i'm pissed. $250 of non refunable metal that used to sound amazing. but now, with some cutting and stop drilling, it only sounds "good".

p.s.those titanium coated zxt 's sound like trashcan lids(not in a good way).
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Old 2004-03-02, 01:01
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Ok this is an old thread I know but oh well... Those titanium one's are the most shittiest cymbals. All these gay ass bands put up things like quotes saying how good they sound and all. Don't know about that one.
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walk through nature's dwelling
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twilight casts spells on those who espouse their fate

ice pricks necks like knives, leaving shards of cadaverous skin
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(Prayer For Cleansing/ "A Dead Soal Born")
 
Old 2004-04-13, 05:08
MaidenCanada
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Thats good to know, i was thinking of buying those cymbals, they are going pretty cheap at MusiciansFriend. Now i know why
 
Old 2004-04-14, 19:20
Gloominati
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Do you guys use jackhammers on your cymbals or something? I've never seen a drummer break a cymbal in my life, and I've been around quite a few.
 
Old 2004-04-18, 00:42
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they must be tight on money
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Old 2004-07-03, 05:56
Compelled 2 Lacerate
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Paiste Rudes would be pretty fucking hard to break just by playing them and zildjian Z customs and sabian metal xs.
 
Old 2004-07-04, 20:26
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Paiste Rude Classics are what I wan't. I don't have a damn bit of money at all for any though but one day I am going to start saving up for some of those. Paiste Rudes are my favorite cymbal so far I think.
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walk through nature's dwelling
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Old 2004-09-10, 20:58
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How the fuck do you break a cymbal? Ive been playing for like 5 years and i beat the shit out of my drums and i've never broken a cymbal.
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Old 2004-09-11, 03:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SixfeetUnder420
How the fuck do you break a cymbal? Ive been playing for like 5 years and i beat the shit out of my drums and i've never broken a cymbal.


Cheap cymbals break easily. I broke my first 18" crash ride in about two months. Hitting that cymbal was like...i cant even describe it. The thing sounded like shit and was so bad that it felt like shit to play. Then I had some other no name crash that I got for 30 bucks. It was sheet metal instead of cast, and i think they break more easily. That one cracked in two places...fucking piece of garbage.
Anyway, guys break decent cymbals for many reasons. If you have your cymbals set up quite high and not angled toward you, then you're hitting the edge of the cymbal dead on and then the cymbal absorbs all of the force of the stick which is very bad. Even if the cymbal is titlted toward you, it can get fucked up if you follow through really hard i.e. with the force of your entire arm without backing off. The most common reason I think is if guys tighten the cymbals to the stands too tight so that they can't move freely (same idea as the stick dead on- it takes the whole force and can't move around to dampen the impact...physics). Cymbal springs can help with that.
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Old 2004-09-11, 23:56
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There is no such thing as "unbreakable" in the world
 
Old 2004-09-12, 07:43
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Diamond comes pretty close....
 
Old 2004-09-12, 20:26
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apparently, spider web silk is very strong too
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Old 2004-09-13, 08:57
NZ black metal drumm
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it is but that is only when you take it in comparitive thickness:

it is many times stronger than steel of the same thickness, but they have not found a way to utilise this strength yet, it doesn't work by just putting lots of threads together otherwise the army would be using Spider web flak vests.
 
Old 2004-09-13, 19:02
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Off Topic: usually spider silk is in bullet/kevlar vests
 
Old 2004-09-14, 01:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DnL
Off Topic: usually spider silk is in bullet/kevlar vests


for real?

I bet spider man could make a bullet proof vest out of his spider webs. And whatever it is the pope-mobile is surrounded by, that shits probably strong too. Like diamond coated plexi glass with spider silk on it...

I'll stop now...
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Old 2004-09-14, 11:58
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yep omdthrash i read somewhere that novadays they use spidersilk in kevlar/bullet vests, cause it is bullet proof and much safer than kevlar
 
Old 2004-09-14, 13:31
xdislexicx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Compelled 2 Lacerate
Paiste Rudes would be pretty fucking hard to break just by playing them and zildjian Z customs and sabian metal xs.

you'd think so huh?... well, my drummer has a couple z custom crashes... he just got them like 3 months ago, and his 19" rock crash has a little crack in the middle, which a really weird place for a crack too, so we're suspecting foul play... normally cymbals crack at the edge or around the bell.
but his 18" z custom projection crash is just as old and takes just as much crashing and it's the thinner one so i was totally expecting it to go first. and it's fine.
luckily he has a 2 year warranty on them... he can get it fixed as many times as it takes. or even replaced... the advantage of buying new.
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Old 2005-01-28, 03:44
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Cymbals do break, apparently....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ummer
A while back, I heard something about Paiste making some unbreakable cymbals. Does anyone know anything about that?


I don't really belong on a site like this, I guess, but I was running a Yahoo search for unbreakable cymbals and this link came up. My son plays drums for a metal band called Tony Danza Tap Dance Extravaganza.
(Site URL)
We met him for dinner tonight and that's what we were talking about, the fact that he's broken pretty much every cymbal he has. (He's been breaking them for years, plays heavy.) Did you ever find out if "unbreakable cymbals" really exist?

Thanks.

Last edited by gbsothere : 2005-01-28 at 05:15.
 
Old 2005-01-28, 04:06
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I doubt there is a an unbreakable cymbal on the market. Ya, maybe if you dont hit them as hard. But if you break cymbals all the time, maybe loosen the stands a bit to give the cymbal room to move freely. I would think the more effort they put into making an unbreakable cymbal, the shittier its going to sound.
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Old 2005-01-28, 05:12
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bronze is one of the most brittle metals on earth,a combination of copper and tin, all metal has a threshold,nothing it impervious to vibration cracks,dents,heat etc

those titanium cymbals are only plated, the reason why i know, they are heavy,titanium is only as strong as stainless steel, its value is due to its light wieght

all bronze is cast in a mold, nothing longer than a speartip is every forged direct,the whole bronze era came from the advancement of casting methods,not forging. the whole "hand hammered" series of various cymbal companies lents itself to be more of a gimmick, any claim of lost "long lost ancient cymbal making method" is bullshit, its all cast,casting methods are better due to machine automation not hocus pocus alchemy shit, and the fact that some guy took a cymbal out of a cast and beat the cymbal with a ball point does not qualify "ancient method", and in any way that suggests its any different than an automated press speced up to make sound grooves, it wont last longer, it makes no difference

zildjian even makes the claim of putting silver in thier bronze mix<they still tarnish>.the quality of bronze can only be determined by how much the alloy has been recycled<i dont know how this is determined by sight>,most sheet metal around today has been recycled many times and probably was produced around WW2, thats when the world steel production went thru the roof in iron mining, production, output,cymbals made of sheet metal are probably the most recycled, low cost form of metal short of rebar


any cymbal company referencing the ottoman empire and constantinople,which both zildjian and sabian do are totally full of shit

the turks were very good at bronze casting, but not cymbals,cymbals already came to be,were already advanced just about to thier most sophicated method centuries ago, they used bronze for the production of a new invention around the 1400's, siege cannon, they also drained the world market of copper and tin thruout the 15th and 16th century to wage jihad on europe and the far east,they were desperate for bronze, they even took the remians of the colossus in Roades to make cannon, a civilization at the time very tolerent of conquered peoples,laws,costums,archeticture,monuments<they only became cruel during the 18th and 19th centuries> cymbal makings most dramatic advances in ancient times before the industrial revolution come from china and india,period.

just clarifying, i know blacksmiths,metalworks and people who cast bronze, and im well read on greek,turkish history because im a greek, zildjian and sabian are good companies, make good cymbals, they just fabricate myth for advertising, all cymbal advertising is usually complete bullshit, they will never make an unbreakable cymbal, it will hurt thier profits. a good idea is to make a cymbal out of reinforced aircraft aluminum, or pure titanium, but even these will not be unbreakable

Last edited by low-tech : 2005-01-28 at 05:15.
 
Old 2005-01-28, 20:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lamb of god\m/
I would think the more effort they put into making an unbreakable cymbal, the shittier its going to sound.


yeah well look how the titaniums turned out...they suck major balls. when you hit a sheet of metal many and many times overandoverandover with a blunt object, it will brake.
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Old 2005-01-28, 23:44
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Damn low-tech, been studying cymbals lately?
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Old 2005-01-29, 02:53
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i live in a artist/loft space in a 100 year old textile mill, up above me is a few wood shops,glass sandblast shop, screen printing shop below me is pewter figurine sentrifudge casting shop<they make those dungeon and dragons figurines, i shit you not>, metal working shops, more woodshops, a bong shop,shipping and recieving shit,discount furniture outlets and a flea market, most other tenents are either hardcore carpenters or masons or students who graduated from the most prominent art school in the country<RISD> with entire departments devoted to casting,sculpture,metalurgy etc.
i gotten to know a few people around here in my 3 years here, got to learn a few things from the viewpoint of builders,craftsmen,proffesionaly trained artists. people whos word and knowledge i prize

i forgot to cite <ancient>egypt as metal working geniuses worthy of mention, ever see the gold coffin lid of tut?, fucking amazing

Last edited by low-tech : 2005-01-29 at 03:37.
 
Old 2005-01-29, 03:53
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woe. you, need to learn, to shorten your god, damn, POSTS!!!! i dont have the patients to read all that information about china and egypts cymbal orgy!!!


(, indicates pause)
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Old 2005-01-29, 04:07
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Originally Posted by rabbifoodslicer
woe. you, need to learn, to shorten your god, damn, POSTS!!!! i dont have the patients to read all that information about china and egypts cymbal orgy!!!


(, indicates pause)


lol, I liked reading it. I don't drum and know just the basics about them but I know metallurgy ( spelling ) from my schools and work. It would have really shocked me if there had been a practical/playable unbreakable cymbal made. There are lots of ways to fabricate metals, but I think the function of the cymbal determines its form, material composition, and also it's inherited property of breaking via cyclic stress. Even aircraft and nuclear reactors develope stress cracks over time from cyclic stress.
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Old 2005-01-29, 06:04
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even cymbals made of titanium or aluminum would have problems beyond their ability to withstand abuse. a cymbal that wieghts 2 pounds<as would be with titanium,probably your average crash> would wobble uncontrolable, then you factor in price. aluminum from what i know of track racing bike frames tend to fold around you if you fall over while on one. they simply are not strong like bronze. a wierd exotic space age reinforced alloy would cost too much to want to leave the house with. stainless steel would wieght too much i believe<not sure on that one>.

i guess bronze is our mainstay for now, if you really want to know thier real worth take them to a scrap metal salvage yard and have them appraised. this is why i dont buy splash cymbals, only marked down second hand rides, more bang for your buck. sorry for the long posts
 
Old 2005-01-29, 06:39
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Anyone ever heard of a alloy steel called Inconel? That is some of the best steel in creation to use from things that recieve lots of cyclic stress.... just take my word for it I can't say anymore.

I think that if you could get a cymbal made of the stuff it would last years.
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Old 2005-01-29, 13:38
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My drummer uses the Paiste 2000 series. Hes hade them for about 3 or 4 years now and not one of them has broken yet.
 
Old 2005-01-29, 17:45
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i dont know alloys well, only the basic metals to some degree where explained to me, ive owned many bmxs and seen track bike frames made out of wierd alloys, im sure there are some metal recipes there good for cymbals, lightwieght but not too light. flexible<proof against vibration, not like bendable> but not too soft. does not corrode. is of a reasonable price to manufacture.

i noticed there are a few things<drum parts,models,cymbals> made in the 60's that last seemingly forever like really big zildjian rides, i attribute this to the whole prefabricated obsoletion factor that prevails nowaday with all industries in america,japan,china. they sure dont make stuff like they used to
 
Old 2005-01-29, 21:50
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no such thing as an unbreakable cymbal.. if you play metal or hardcore, the paiste rudes are one of the best cymbals for beating on.. ive seen non-dented/cracked/keyholed rudes from the 80s that are still in great shape.. they just sound like complete ass outside of their specific genres
 
Old 2005-01-31, 03:06
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despite all cracking and butt plastering, does it seem like chinas crack easier then normal crashes? i just put a fucken crack in my piggyback cymbal (small china about 7-8 inches) and when it happened i was fucken pissed.
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Old 2005-01-31, 09:55
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lnconel is mig welding wire?!? wierd

ive seen those rudes around too, never owned one, maybe worth checking out
 
Old 2005-01-31, 12:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low-tech
lnconel is mig welding wire?!? wierd

ive seen those rudes around too, never owned one, maybe worth checking out


Inconel comes in a few different alloy mixes, but from what I know of it's genernal properties I just thought it would make an awsome cymbal. If it's good enough for nuclear reactors than it has got to be good enought to make a cymbal of it too. The stuff is strong as hell and is made to resist cracking and corrosion.
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Old 2005-01-31, 13:38
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your suggestion was excellent soul, i was just thinking of source building materials, i wasnt actually thinking of the welds that holds the structure of metal, mig is just the tip of the iceberg, now i wonder what alloy wire is used in tig,arch,stick,aluminum welding

welds are very important, they have to be good against corrosion and vibration, the weld is the first to go usually in any structure that endures alot of vibration and stress, think about carnival rides, the steel design is structual overkill, but its the welds that are the worry that require constant maintenance and inspection<aside from the whole hydraulics,electrical aspects>
 
Old 2005-02-01, 20:32
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you do realize youre saying that you want to build a solid steel cymbal right?
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Old 2005-02-01, 21:04
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i just had a conversation about stainless with my boss, might be good

i was refering to lnconel in that last post, its a variation of different nickel alloys, i believe, amoung other things its the wire used for mig welding, the weld isnt actually the same metal as the structure, i could be wrong so, if your more familiar with welding, by all means, enlighten me, ive only used a mig a few times putting alot of splatter down in my short time with it

another thing is that it may be inconel thats used for only nickel based steels, this is another thing that may be true, idont know, the only thing i do know is that when forging a piece of steel that has a mig weld on it, the weld itself heats up much quicker,becomes more brittle than the steel it binds

either way, i know people who can cast metal,but they dont have the facilities,thier shops are more blacksmith,welding orientated,if i could find someone with a shop that could produce a cymbal, that might be a tempting idea in the future
 
Old 2005-02-01, 22:40
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Inconel is a Nickel-Chromium based stainless steel made for it's strong resistance to cracking and corrosion. I know that some mixes of it can be pricey but of all the metals I know, I think Inconel would be the best suited for a cymbal as long as it is fabricated correctly. Are all cymbals cast made? I ask 'cause that adds lots of carbon to the metal that make it harder but also very brittle and prone to cracking.
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Old 2005-02-02, 04:46
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Yes, cymbals can break. I have a couple thin crashes that have broken, they're Paiste sigs so it's not because they're cheap and crappy. They sounded awesome too. I'm guessing that the thicker cymbals would be harder to break, but I like the sound of thin crashes better. So it's just something I'll have to put up with. I usually get a few years out of them first, so it's not too bad. I would imagine how much they get played is just as much a factor as how hard they are played. But, yes they do break, and it must not be too hard...for I am a mere girl
 
Old 2005-02-02, 09:13
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i believe hitting cymbals and drums has more to do with ergonomics as opposed to sheer physical strength. ithink forearm,wrist and hand strength just helps endurance and consistancy effecting overall volume slightly. theres a kid in my town in a band. hes like 5'3, squat and not strong looking at all but he absolutely wails the drums a lot louder than i do,or anyone else around here.he uses 2b sticks. its like using your chi or something.another guy i know absolutely kills sabian rides, another loud drummer using 5b double enders. ive noticed the same thing with swinging a hammer. its pointless to swing your hardest, and the pounds per square inch factor has more to do with the wieght of the hammer and the angle of the swing than the actual force of the swing. this is my theory on heavy gauged sticks, male or female, hits about the same. unless steriods are involved or something absolutely monsterious gets behind the kit

im sending out emails to ask on casting methods. i wish i knew more, my roomate mentioned sand casting, but that just could be the cheapest,easiest way to make something artist and not with integrity. cymbals are also lathed for the most part, but ive noticed those paiste rudes arent. the rudes are made for punk and metal music. it says so in thier advertising. ill get back to this thread when i get more info

Last edited by low-tech : 2005-02-02 at 09:24.
 
Old 2005-02-02, 13:04
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I didnt read every post so maybe my one is misplaced but...
What shall I do with unbreakable cymbals if they sound like shit??
Im not really into that rude sound (except the ride which the cc drummer use, its okay...maybe its because I think the paiste cymbals doesnt soundgood except their Hi Hats (sound edge!!!!!))
since I cracked my Anatolian, I just became more carefully and started to "playing" them...that sounds much better (no really Im not a hardhitter that saves much money and sounds MUCH better.)
So if you just STOP to hit your cymbals like a berserk they can last forever ...
My drumteacher had never cracked a cymbal in 20 years.
 
Old 2005-02-04, 22:10
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ive broke 2 zildians.im playin paisy sigs now.they're way louder than the other cymbals but you have to hit them just as hard to get that full sound out.
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Old 2005-02-04, 22:25
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Ive never cracked a cymbal in my 3+ year drumming career
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Old 2005-02-05, 10:20
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Posts: 1,023
The strength of the hit doesn't really depend on the person's size, or gender. I know small people who are very fit and can bend me into a pretzel, but on the other hand, I can kick the ass of some people taller and suposedly stronger than me. It's not muscle quantity, it's muscle quality, and the muscles in your wrists are independent of your overall size.

I never cracked a cymbal, simply because mine are cheap shit cymbals, and they bend and turn inside out instead.
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Old 2005-02-26, 22:22
low-tech's Avatar
low-tech
Post-whore
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: providence
Posts: 1,863
my boss gave me a lnconel chop saw blade!, hell yeah, i never found any useful additional info about casting, everyone i know have only dabbled in it,i assumed they were far more experienced. im still trying to get one of my friends to bring me into the school to talk to the casting instructor, doesnt seem like it'll pan out tho, but in a wierd way i did achieve something at least in finding that metal for a cymbal, and it sounds amazing. 10" diameter
 
Old 2005-04-07, 04:54
Wakeness's Avatar
Wakeness
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 160
I broke a Ziljan Avedis 18 Med-thin crash in less than 4 months. (Mind you, I beat it like a high hat, constantly.)
I got a free replacement, but I went with a thicker cymbal.
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