I agree.

Def, if its "always the same with war and innocent people die". Then why fucking goto war. If you were an Iraqi citizen, what do you think would be going through your head right now?

Right now in schools in Iraq, they are teaching their children to get to bomb shelters. The United States are planning on firing 400+ cruise missles into Iraq a day.

Yeah Saddam Hussein is an asshole, but why must we kill more people to show killing people is wrong? Leave it to bush to "bomb for freedom and terrorize to end terror"

Fuck Blair
Fuck Bush
Fuck War

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fuck stupid punk rocker people who are wearing they're anti-war bands around there arms.. i say FUCK THAT war rules.. lets kick some ass

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punk rocker? hardly

someone who cares for innocent lives, yes

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I think your opinion would greatly change if you where on the frontline.

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exactly, we doing to protect ourselves. if you think of it that way, perhaps it would explain an iraqi invasion?

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that´s a good point of living in the ass of the world, the war only touch us from economic perspective, no chilean die on this fucking war.
By the way: how many of you know where is Chile?, whitout looking a map?

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terrorism, is but with a sense of irony.



by the way, chile is the long, vertical eastern country of south america.
i took world geo. in the 9th grade.

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so you powersofterror must realice that no bomb is gona be drop over here (congratulation for that answer, i´m impresed, many people think that chile is just something that the mexican put on the food)

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why would some say its food when you specify "map," and "where is"
seems odd to me.....yet.....there are younguns here.....or are there?....

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hahahahahaha !

Well I think Iraq is a little far away from the US to do that and besides
why would Saddam do that?He is to face war against Iraq without having
done nothing against the US,imagine what would happen if he had done something!!!

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it doesnt have to be the US, almost any european country is just as good a target (no offence)

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True, but only the United States maintains the role of global bully.

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hahaha..."global bully"...hahaha

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where the hell did the 9/11 bombings come from? afghanistan, that's not next door to america either, it doesn't matter, they can throw chemical shit on turkey and then the shit hits the fan.

ofcourse Saddam wouldn't do that right now, but there's a chance he might use the weapons or threaten to use them in the future if we don't stop him now. and he might even supply terrorist, that isn't a pretty picuture!

Saddam has done ENOUGH do deserve a serious ass-whooping, think about the innocent people he used as a shield and the people who died in the war he started when he invaded kuwait. Ofcourse, you can blame america too, but they're the one's who freed the kuwaiti and beat saddams ass to the curb.

I think the problem will stay, the people in Iraq will be terrorised and it won't stop untill they get rid of saddam and udaj.

Saddam might not be part of the Taliban, but he might be funding them, Terrorism isn't a weak excuse to wreak havoc dammit.

think about all the people who where killed by terrorist, I think america has the fullest right to retaliate, but all we do is give americans shit for trying to go to war with terrorist countries.

You know those chemical weapons they're, ahem, supposed to NOT have? Well, read this news story.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/n.../28/wirq228.xml

first off, 9/11 wasn't a bomb, they were people. people living IN america. yeah, saddam needs to die, but you keep saying terrorist this, and terrorism that, saddam IS NOT connected to taliban.
and there is no such thing as "terrorist countries". the people that carried out 9/11 were living in america, does that make them guilty of harboring terrorist's? does that make them a "terrorist country", i think so.
so i encourage everyone that does not like terrorism and terrorist's to turn your guns on america.

lol, you've got a point there.

but ofcourse there are countries supporting terrorism, there's no proof saddam is either connected to the taliban or not, ofcourse he's going to deny it when he's connected to them.
Maybe he's not even connected to them, but this guy's a threath and somebody needs to free that country from its fucking dictator.

I wasn't implying a bomb, you knew what I meant, but it was coordinated from out the taliban, those people lived in america yes, but they where recruted by the taliban.

whatever, I'm not going to argue with you anymore, I don't like war either but I just hope they free iraq of that bastard once and for all. and if they do I hope the Nato doesn't stick around, only give help but not try to run the country. that won't work anyway.

I hope they free Iraq from Hussein to... but you know more deaths have been caused by the gulf war then Hussein's antics. Who is the threat to the people of Iraq.. especially since they want to rehash that hell on the people of Iraq.

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Actually the Gulf War was directly because of Hussein's antics. The blood from every civilian and military Iraqi casualty from the Gulf War is on his hands.

I respect your passion for human lives, Mofo, even though your signature clearly states that it wants to watch me drown but almost every point you try to make is missing a piece of the equation.

pfft, more like global dictators

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But hasn't the depleted uranium used by the americans been hte cause of over a million deaths and the cancer epidemic in iraq?

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are you pulling this out of your ass or do you have a source for this?

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please explain.

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it seems to me that you're both saying almost the same damn thing.
slayme says the gulf war was directly related to saddam's actions,
and you're saying that our bombs gave everyone cancer to death.
uhhhh, yeah, our bombs directly relating to saddam.

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ok.... at least you have source. Not that I have a high regard for the "social change"-types, but it doesn't appear to be pure bullshit.

I'm with Powers- if Saddam would simply be reasonable in all this, that kind of shit wouldn't have to happen. Do I think we were right in using depleted uranium? Not really. Do I still think we should go to war? I'd like to see our military use better judgement, but yes.


What ever happened to the good old days when we raided people 'cause we wanted their land?

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they're still here.

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I was doing my routine check up on this thread, and I was intending to leave it open until I got to the last 4 posts.

Say goodnight thread.

I cleaned this thread of idiocy. Took ages, but we're back in business.

Anyway, what's an opinion thread without my opinion? Seriously, I'm spending a lot of time writing something about this, more than I usually would with my bullshit. I'll put it up soon. The issue in itself is really interesting. Fuck the war, this is a great way to find out how our world works.

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Hm, we're eagerly awaiting your view on things, fbs.

I think I really don't want to know how the world works.

I heard that Iraq is destroying their al samoud missiles now, but that there's still a lot of chemical stuff not retrieved according to archives and stuff.

ohyeah, did any of you read the papers? today I read that Al-Quaida where planning an attack on Pearl Harbor??? because of the history of Pearl Harbor and stuff.. man, I'm glad they found out...
Those plans where found in the apparment where that Al-Quaida guy was hanging around, which they arrested, I also read there was new proof that Iraq is supporting worldwide terrorism, and also the Al-Quaida, but I don't know what to think of it. It might be bullshit.

PART ONE – CONTEXT

War, war, war, it’s happened before…

You think we’d be better at it by now.

In any case, they nearly had me. I was shacked up in Dublin, and waking up each morning to the dubious pleasures of Sky News, who ran one story for the weeks I was there…

WAR!

BOMBS, DEATH AND MAYHEM! WE’LL ALL BE MURDERED IN OUR BEDS! KILLED! BOILED IN ACID! DISMEMBERED! THE BROWN PEOPLE ARE COMING! THEY HATE US! THEY’RE GOING TO TORTURE US! KILL US! AND OUR PUPPY DOGS!

I never realised the propaganda value of a 24 hour news channel before. I’m ashamed to admit it, but this is true – I was starting to worry about my flight home, through the London airports. Were they going to bomb me? Send my arrogant white ass to Allah? Jaysus, they were having security alerts, parking armoured cars out the front in the taxi bay (just in case any terrorists decided to attack by taxi), found some lunatic toting a grenade, had more security alerts, then they locked down part of the airport… oh, it was woeful…

But! The whole time Sky News was there, the po-faced whore presenter continually reeling out the very latest development, not from yesterday or today or even an hour ago, but LIVE. Small slices of information, gleaned from all sorts of places, rolling, rolling out of the box all the time, marching towards me inexorably like the jackboots themselves… and me sitting there in my sleeping bag wondering… and me worrying… and all of the information leading to one inescapable conclusion:

When I flew home, I was going to die.

When I eventually did fly out, I forgot there was an alert on. That was only a week later.

In fact, I only remembered in Frankfurt. Which is mildly amusing, as if Frankfurt was attacked the war would start tomorrow.


This first incident really changed the way I think about this war. It has led me to a few conclusions.

* The information that we get, the manner in which we obtain it, and the way it is presented is incredibly important in shaping people’s opinions. It is overriding. It is approaching omniscient.
* Most people are incredibly ill-informed about issues like this. Grab anyone at random and ask them these things:-

1) Can you draw a map of Iraq? What countries border Iraq?
2) Describe the recent history of ethnic conflict within Iraq.
3) Which British elder statesman was in favour of gassing the Kurds in the 20’s? And why?
4) Exactly how much of this mythical ‘oil’ does Iraq have? Who has current access?
5) What is popular support like for Saddam Hussein within Iraq? Describe social welfare and infrastructure development under Saddam.
6) What does the rest of the Arab world think about the Iraqi state? What about Muslims in general, both mainstream and secular lunatic?
7) What kind of business transactions has Iraq been involved in with developed countries in the last decade?
8) What is the issue with Iraqi Kurdistan, and their autonomy? What are the issues that Turkey is having so much trouble with resolving with regards to Kurdistan?
9) What quantity of chem or bio agents could Iraq possibly have, and what delivery mechanisms do they have at their disposal? As such, do they constitute a threat to other countries security?

Hilariously, most people get ZERO out of ten for this quiz. I'd love to give it George Bush.

The terrible part is that you could be told ANY answer to these questions, and you’d eat it up like every other plate of shit pie they ever served you. And with skid marks around your mouth, you’d ask for more. Like Winston Smith’s Telescreen, the idiot box will vomit figures and statistics at you and they will permeate your brain if you love Big Brother. More shit! Stuff it in me!

* Democracy and the mass media have somehow given everyone the right to an opinion, when most of them should probably be denied the right to oxygen. The thing I resent about democracy on very first principles is the fact that some colossal genetic mistake from Kansas who has duct-taped his entire house airtight to protect against “chem’cal and nuclur weppins” has the same political clout as me.
* All kinds of justification can be used to start a war, but nothing, NOTHING, is more important than the way you sell it. You could start a war with the Lesser Antilles with the right story and a sprinkling of moral outrage. Speaking of which...

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PART 2 – MORALS AND MORALISM

The United States is good at several things. Such things as basketball, cunting the world with trade policy and moralism are included. Especially moralism, with branch specialisations in moral outrage and schizophrenic values.

Currently we are being sold the line of danger, in keeping with the new War on ‘Terror’ (I love the idea of declaring war on a concept… Next, the War on Melancholy! But I digress&#8230. Saddam Hussein is a threat, a real one, right now, and there’s nothing else we can do except turn him and his country into dog meat. Get him before he gets us. Why? He is A BAD MAN. HE MUST DIE. Bad men do that. Remember Khomeni? He had a beard. Obvious parallel.

The only problem with this shoddy and opportunistic reasoning is it partly right. Saddam Hussein IS a premium-grade cuntox, and not fit to manage Mrs. Miggins’ garden party let alone a country full of starving people.

However, this man, this big mustachioed nutsack, has been demonised off the ends of the earth. He is BAD. We are GOOD. Everyone has forgotten the first two rules of Far Beyond Sane’s Political Conflict Theory! Let me briefly recap these.

1) Most everyone is a cunt, not some, not most. Everyone.

2) Every country is a big collective cunt. No-one is right. No-one is wrong. Everyone is a cunt.

3) If someone manages not to be a cunt, then they are necessarily too small and ineffectual to have an involved part in any political process.

4) Very, very few people or countries are more or less of a cunt than others.

To summarise quickly – you’re a cunt, your country is a cunt, people who aren’t cunts don’t count, we’re all the same type of cunt.

Taking this into account, it’s very hard to polarise an issue, very hard to find a bad guy. There’s a million ways to justify invading someone though, because they’re all cunts. You point to one aspect of their cunt-ness and sternly call it ‘unacceptable’ – then you saddle up and go.

The upshot of all of this? Everyone is guilty. Everyone has become culpable. A moral high-horse is not a legitimate ride anymore, it is a place from which you convince ‘the people’ that what you are going to do anyway is right. No-one cares, no-one should pretend they care. No-one is forever vigilant, and right all the time. We only have alternatives of different shades of cunt. The post-modern world is a colossal amorphous grey area.

And no-one, except me, is willing to admit it. You’re all still looking for bad guys. Buy a mirror. We’re the bad guys. And so are they.

Personally I don’t care if war breaks out all over the globe and we all nuke each other with alarming and gloriously futile circularity. The wider you shift your perspective, the smaller some pissy little war seems. Inhumane? Sure. People are going to die? I know. Lots of them! That’s what happens in a war, from memory. If there’s a war, a few thousand western servicemen and women will die. In a month in Africa, thousands will starve to death, catch AIDS and slowly rot, catch Ebola and quickly rot, be eradicated from communicable diseases, you name it. People in Angola will be hacked to death for voting for the wrong ‘democratically elected’ political party. Policemen and judges will be slaughtered in Columbia. Men, women and children will ‘disappear’ in Mexico. People too proud to beg will slowly starve to death, haemorrhage and die, ebb away cold, lonely and forgotten. And that, my friends, will happen everywhere. We find it very hard to care about them, or about any other human tragedy that doesn’t appear in Technicolour. Don’t give me “implications on foreign policy”, or for that matter “polarising the Islamic and Western worlds” or even "modern colonialism/Imperialism". Fuck it all.

And BY THE WAY… people in the army getting shot is not a tragedy. What a colossally arrogant fucking idea! It’s their JOB. If I’m a butcher and I accidentally fall into a meat slicer, all I get is “ACCIDENT”. Why don’t other professions get tragedy? If you’re in the armed forces, then your job is KILLING PEOPLE, or at the very least helping someone in management do it. A half-ounce flying piece of lead persuasion is an occupational hazard.

Politics have nothing to do with morals. Morals have nothing to do with politics. Morals are window-dressing for self-interest. Vivé Niccolo. You are dead-on correct today, my dear old boy, and you will continue to be right for a long, long time to come.


P.S. And believe me, there is NOT ONE MISERABLE THING you can do about any of it. Sit back and enjoy the fireworks, or not.

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Sane, go buy or download Jello Biafra's (X - Singer of Dead Kennedys) Spoken Word album called "A Machine Gun in the Clown's Hand. 100% Garenteed to satisfy you. Hes a hilarious sarcastic guy that has the same conecept of everything you said and more. Here are the track listings -
1: "The Big Ka-Boom, Parts 2-69" (4:35)
2: "United We Scam" (7:03)
3: "Flogging the Infidels" (11:34)
4: "Honey, I Blew Up the World" (13:19)
5: "The Big Ka-Boom" (3:41)
6: "The Pied Piper and the Damage Done" (14:32)
7: "Truth is Stranger than Hype" (7:21)
8: "The Terror of Tinytowm" (11:04)
1: "The Big Ka-Boom, Parts 70-666" (7:07)
2: "The Great Betrayal" (8:49)
3: "The Martyr That Would Not Die" (6:23)
4: "Propane and Propane Accessories" (4:38)
5: "Faith-Based Initiatives" (13:11)
6: "Fight Terror-Resist Corporations" (4:27)
7: "Be Patriotic -Fight the Government" (9:46)
8: "Beat Around the Burning Bush" (5:10)
9: "Fight Crime - Make Mischief" (11:42)
1: "Cowboy Cornholio and the Sunshine State" (9:30)
2: "...And Gore Made Us Want to Ralph" (7:21)
3: "The Rolling Blackout Revue" (7:08)
4: "12 Steps to Corporate-Free Sobriety" (17:01)
5: "Joey Ramone" (5:45)

"Jello Biafra releases his 7th spoken word album. Everyone who hears this will agree this is one of his finest and most entertaining releases ever. It contains material recorded during his spoken word performances over the past year, including up-to-the-minute dialog regarding the situation in Iraq. Probably his funniest release to date, where he busts out impersonations - from world leaders to his high school geometry teacher. Yet, humor aside, it is one of his most stirring and emotional albums. Jello talks about the Mid-East crisis, The War On Terrorism, Voting, Joey Ramone, Corporate Controlled Mass Media, Geneticaly Modified Food, Corporate Feudalism, Patriotism, The Energy Crisis, Dead Kennedys, Civil Liberties, George Bush I & George Bush II, The Spirit Of Seattle, more dirt on Florida, Darryl Cherney & Judi Bari, War Veterans..."

Enjoy

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......No offense to jews, but the Israeli's are assholes.....
I was watching the Armenian News (No duh, I'm living in armenia and there is no
American TV) and they were at Palestine filming the people throwing rocks at Israeli tanks, and the israelies threw this bomb, and when it explodes; big as needles start
spreading around capabile of piercing through skin. Little innnocent Palestinian kids at the age of 4,5,6,7,11, and 15 die cuz of this stupid shit.You would have to have a
cold heart to kill children. I wish I was in Palestine, and I would smuggle weapons there and kill innocent Israelis to see how it feels when they kill palestinians....
I don't give a damn whether I'm Christian or Muslim (I'm Orthodox Christian by the way) but US doesn't help Palestine because practically the majority of United States
is Jewish. I know most of the people here are from US, but I'm being honest. You americans might say "Oh yeah; but those palestinians were ramming their planes onto buildings, first.Israel is just defending their lives" ......Well thats untrue.
Palestinians also did suicide bombings because those people have nothing to lose because their kids, wife, and family are dead because of Israeli's! And I know that
Atifman's family discusses this stuff because they're muslim and believe this shit that is going on is wrong......And I got one more thing to say: "George Bush is a bully to
Arabs, Pakistanis, Armenians, Iranians, Lebanese, Russians, North Korea, and Iraqi
people"

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Im gunna slip in two comments to your response bones. American T.V. is extreamly biest and will only show the horrible things they do. Now im not saying that it is ok to do these things but not ALL do this and thats what the media america wants to have its citiznes think so that they dont feel so bad when they see the killing of them they think "revenge must be served". Also I don't like George much myself, but saying that he is a bully isn't completely true. He didn't exactly start anything with Iraq/Afghanastain ect. .He had taken the presidency with the heat that the previous presidents had caused with them. Also the reputation from the other presidents of bieng bullys (vietnam for example).

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Hello Mr. Moral Relativist. I am pleased to see your kind here. We're short of targets right now.

I am pleased to see you have invented a particularly simple way to solve the problems of the Middle East. Also, I am glad to see that towelheads bombing kike schools, universities and cafes does not morally outrage you. Random acts of mass murder are much worse when perpetrated on children, of course. Killing adults is only for the warm-hearted fraternity.

People who take sides are the problem. Look up the term 'cycle of violence'. It's the street warfare equivalent of FBS Principles 1 & 2 - everyone is a cunt.

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Haha, i love sarcastic.


The best government is self-government.
My government teacher taught me that.

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Alright i think its time too put all these little bitches in check..."France...Germany...Iraq...N Korea...Etc " i really think france needs too get their shit together the only reason they are soo scared of us going to war with iraq is becaues they are afraid that we are gonna find out about all the fuct up shit they did....This is a quote from a forien affairs anaylst...IJAZ: Well, there are two separate things. One is what would be uncovered if we were going to go to war with Iraq and essentially obliterate without French help the system that Saddam has set up. And there, what you have to worry about -- let's not forget that the French provided nuclear reactors to Iraq once upon a time........ come on your gonna tell me they though he was gonna try and make power for his people...the same people he agian and agian have gased, tortured and who knows what else.... .... and you wonder why the inspectors dont find anything... saddam has had 12 years of practise at hidding shit.... and its allready been known he has advanced knowledge of when and where the inspectors are going.... and i know as soon as we go in there and dig up all of his bull shit the world will see how much he really has been lying and how much the french and germans have been aswell... basically Kill em if ya gotta

Yeah, kill em all, that's what americans are good at huh.

I agree with FBS, it sure is a big post, but take the time to read it, and I agree, it's all how you sell it, american tv is extremely biased (sp?)
We all know saddam hussein is a cunt, we all know bin laden should be shot, but you can't just bomb the shit out of a country.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Americans can Nah, I'm serious, without proper justification there's still going to be a war, I don't see the link between fighting terrorist and fighting and old grumpy dictator, he's had his best days man.
I don't think there is a need to go to war with Iraq now, sure, they probably do have chemical weapons, but, he isn't going to use them, why start a war and risk it? why don't we just send heaps of inspectors and spies and shit, just disarm them, without going to war, they will give in anyways, since else they're going to get their asses shot.

About the 'war against terrorism' I'm totally with that, a bunch of religion freaks did 9/11, that just wasn't right, America wants payback, and god, I'm with them, I could kill that bin laden freak with my bare hands. Who the fuck thinks that the war against terrorism is bad, should reconsider it, would you like to glow in the dark in a couple of years?

Okay, the war against terrorism thing can be wrongly used as an excuse to wipe out other countries and stuff, but that's not going to happen, even if we go to war with Iraq, it is in our own interest, and I'm not even talking about oil.
I'm not sure how big a treath Saddam is right now, all I see is a grumpy old dictator who's had his best days. I can't wait to see Uday Hussein in action, he's even a bigger cunt then his day, if there's going to be a war, waste that son of a bitch too

well really i dont think any of us can judge...becaues i know i dont know all the facts... i mean who knows... im sure theres soo much more shit they cant say becaues they would expose there sources.... soo ya know i support what ever my country has too say...too an extent...