Hi,

I was just reading some speaker cabinet reviews on www.harmony-central.com and one of the reviewers wrote that for downtuned guitars, one needs cabs whose speakers can handle lower frequencies. That makes perfect sense, of course, and I also remembered I was told this by someone once.

So, I just wanted to know what you guys think. Thanks.

well, if it's on the internetzzzzz, its gotta be true!


ask your local store

__________________

Thanks for the reply, The Doctor. I think I see your point. One must not believe everything he/she reads on the internet. I try to keep that in mind all the time.

I'll ask the local dealer and if he knows, I'll let post what he says here.

Good pickups + good speakers and you should not have a problem. It's all about clarity.

__________________

if you're playing frequencies that go below the specified frequency floor of a speaker, you will have problems. You will not be able to yield clean tones when you play that note, and that note will not be heard, only the distorted harmonics of it. Also, if you power it too hard, you could end up fucking the speaker (like what happens when you plug a bass amp into a guitar cab).


Also, as a side note, all of but one of my experiences in guitar shops, the people have never had a clue about what theyre talking about, and just try to sell you shit without caring what you need. I've had a guy try to tell me that line6 was better than mesa... and bogner... and orange... and marshall...

__________________

Thanks. Very helpful post. It's just to see whether certain speakers are better for 7-string guitars 'cause that's what I currently use. (I regret getting a 7-string at the moment but have to stay with it for a while until I save enough money to get a 6-string.) Thanks again.

theres some truth in it...but the bigger truth is the amp-speaker combination....some amp voicings want different voiced speakers...best thing to do would be to try your guitar and amp with different cabs/speakers.

good luck

jsut find a high wattage speaker with a relatively low frequency floor. The high wattage should protect you from driving it too hard and blowing it out. Also, i did more research/testing on this, and you CAN hear the note through the spaeker, its just alot quieter than other notes; and its not just because your strings are loose.

And if you have a fat load of cash, look into an ISP Vector guitar cab.

__________________

Thanks for all the info, the_bleeding. So, what about speakers themselves? I notice that the most popular speakers are Celestion speakers. What's your opinion about them and do you recommend any particular model?

hey i didnt get your pm.

But anwyays, right now im running a mesa 4x12 with v30's and its really heavy on the bass (because of the cab), but right infront of it the treble is kind of harsh (v30s are known for this). Eminence speakers are cheaper than celestions but same quality. Alot about celestion's pricetag is the name. I think my fav combo of speakers that i've tested with my marshall 6100lm is a splawn 4x12 with emi governors and man'o'wars. Super crunchy, but not harsh. But it reallly depends on what you want out of them. I'm addicted to mids and crunchy distortion (a la motorhead), thus the v30's. Though i might switch to eminence v12 legends because theyre apparently a v30 with more wattage and less harshness... and i love the sound of v12's clean

anyawys, what do you want out of your speakers?

__________________

Oh, MetalTabs informs you when a pm was not successfully sent to you? Cool!

I wanted to ask you whether you knew of any website or page that had like a list of tubes and the tonal properties of each. Like, I don't know... say EL34 = Middy sound, 6L6 = 'Scooped mids' sound, etc.
I've tried searching for a page or website like this but to no avail so far.

Anyway, regarding this thread... wow, you seem to know a lot about cabs and speakers and tubes. Good. I still don't know that much. For now, I'm satisfied with the sound I'm getting from my setup. I'm using an all-tube Marshall combo (40W) with just a Boss GE-7 eq pedal 'cause my amp doesn't have the "Resonance" and "Presence" knobs so I can still further change the tone using the eq pedal.

Ok, I guess this is all for now. Thanks for everything, man!

Oh, I forgot to answer your question... I'm into the 'scooped mids' sound hehe. But I'm not so sure lately. I'm trying to experiment with my eq pedal for new tones.

hahah there really arent any pages that fully describe what tubes sound like. What i can tell you however is that el34's compress nicely, have emphasis on the mids, and as you turn them up they get pretty warm sounding... they are what defines marshall tone.

KT77's (high powered el34) is basically an el34 with extended bass and headroom. Good tonez.

6CA7's are big bottle el34's, same guts, different bottle... typically more headroom. EVH's favorite.

6l6's have more highs and lows than el34's making them seem scooped in comparison (which they arent), theyre a pretty flat sounding tube. Saturating them yeilds heavy bass and fat tones, but if you overdrive them you'll get some nasty spikey treble. Have you ever heard a silverface fender twin overdrive? its unpleasant.

KT66;s (british high powered 6l6) are best described as a combo between el34's and 6l6's. They have more mids, yet all the bass of a 6l6.

6550's were designed by americans as an upgraded high power 6l6. They have bigger bass, and extended highs, and can get pretty harsh sounding in certain applications. However, they can also get a low mid fog in them which gives me a raging boner. Ever heard an ampeg svt overdrive? or maybe a Sunn Model T (like from the band Sunn O)))), thats what the fog sounds like, but you have to be careful with the treble. This is my fav tube because i love the fog... i'm actually building an amp with 6550's so i can hit a chord and masturbate to it....

KT88's were the british high powered 6l6 upgrade. Huge bass, lots of highs. Again like a 6550 they can get harsh in certain applications, but in VHT amps kt88's are apparently more forgiving and smooth out better. It really depends on the brand. They just sound huge.

Take all of this with a grain of salt. Different brands have different nuances to them, and different amps will react differently. Any experienced amp builder can design around any tube to make it sound however they want. Honestly, if you know what you're doing, you can make a powersection as transparent or as colourful as you want. You can get hifi uncoloured sounds out of el34's, and you can make 6l6's sound like marshall el34 crunch.

__________________

I checked out the ISP Vector cab on the ISP website and it seems like a great cab: High-powered and includes a 15" speaker for the low frequencies (I'm thinking downtuned guitars).
But I don't think I could get that here. I'll check. Perhaps the closest cab would be a Vader cab. I was thinking of getting the two Vader cabs: the 4 x 12" cab and the other one with 2 x 15". Having a full stack with one of each of those cabs should give out quite a good, powerful sound I think.

vaders use regular guitar speakers, theyre nothing like the ISP active subs. To be perfectly honest, you'd b better off going with some matamp or engl cabinets. The matamps are full custom so you could request the emi legend G series (same speakers that vader use), and probably get it for less than a vader with all the shipping, because theyre liocated in the UK. ENGL is located in germany so it would be cheap, but they come with celestion speakers; which there is nothing wrong with, theyre great speakers. Honestly, i'd take your head to a local shop or something and try cabinets out.

__________________

Cool! So you yourself run your amp through a Mesa Boogie cab, right?

Regarding Vaders... yeah, I noticed they don't use Celestion or other speakers. Just regular guitar speakers. I'll look into ISP cabs or Matamp or Engl.
From the reviews and comments I came across on the 'net, it seems that Celestion are like, the best speakers or let's say the most widely preferred speakers for cabs.
I'm thinking... I could get a cab with similar specs of an ISP cab from Matamp.

Yeah i have a mesa, its pretty sweet... but probably incredibly expensive in europe. Engl would be a more economic choice for you; and they use the same speakers.And vader cabs use Eminence speakers (american made; makes them cheaper in the states where they're built). Celestion speakers are just standard. There is no best speaker, but there are definately expensive spaekers, and celestions are some of the most expensive. However, since you're in europe they shoudl be a bit cheaper because its a UK run company. Eminence, JBL, Jense, EV and weber are all american so the shipping will hit you there.
I doubt matamp will be able to buidl you an active cab like the isp vector tyhough. That cab has its own amplifier IN the cab. Its ridiculously awesome hahaha.

__________________

Hi,

I just thought I'd update this thread with the latest info I've come across. So, I've been doing some research on amplifiers just to make sure I understand all the basics. (I don't want to screw up and get the wrong amplifier, you know.)

So, anyway... I came across this informative article on Wikipedia where it says:
"01. Speaker size - Speaker cabinets designed for bass instrument amplification usually use larger loudspeakers (or more loudspeakers, in the case of the popular 4 X 10" cabinets, which contain four 10" speakers) than the cabinets used for other instruments, so that they can move the larger amounts of air needed to reproduce low frequencies. While the largest speakers commonly used for regular electric guitar are 12" speakers, electric bass speaker cabinets often use 15" speakers. Bass players who play styles of music that require an extended low-range response, such as death metal, sometimes use speaker cabinets with 18" speakers."

Let's forget that it's specifically about bass cabs for a while. If I understood the above well, it seems to say that for handling the lower frequencies (downtuned guitars, 7-string guitars I assume would fall under this category), you need a cab with speakers that can handle those lower frequencies.
So far, so good right? Now, it says that you either get a cabinet with bigger speakers or else a cabinet with more speakers. In other words, bigger size or bigger quantity.
So, I thought I'd calculate the total area of a cabinet with 2 x 12" + 1 x 15" speakers (39") and the total area of a cabinet with 4 x 12" speakers (48"). I don't know if this makes any sense or not but I thought that having a full-stack with one of each type of cabinet would be a good idea. I mean, one cabinet would feature the bigger 15" speaker and the other would have the larger quantity of speakers (4 x 12" speakers).

I think for versatility this would be quite good, too.

Any opinions?

P.S. By the way, in his reply, jesse said "some amp voicings want different voiced speakers". What does that mean? I don't understand.

hahah your math is funny. It makes sense, but its not really that easy. Moving more air doesnt determine frequency, it determines the amplitude (loudness). Bass is relatively difficult amplify in an amp, and also to hear from the human ear so we have to make it loud.

Bigger speakers just put out lower frequencies... likely because theyre heavier and have trouble moving quickly... but don't quote me on that.

And the Jesse dude. Different Amps sound different, so to get what you want you need different speakers. For example, if you have a really harsh bright amp, you arent going to put it with a really harsh speaker. Or if you have a really dark amp, you arent going to put it with a dark speaker. You'll typiaclly put the dark amp through a bright speaker so you can hear it. make sense?

__________________

Hahaha if only Math was so easy.

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting that Randall cab with the 2 x 12" + 1 x 15" speakers and then buy a head. The idea is to take the cab with me to the stores and try out each head with the same cab. Would that be a good idea? I'm saying this because I've heard that cabs and speakers affect the sound a lot, so I'd like to keep that variable constant, scientifically speaking.

As for amp voicings... thanks for explaining it to me. It's like guitar woods and pickups, right? For example, Maple wood is considered very bright so installing a bright pickup would not be such a good idea. The idea is to balance the tone.

Thanks again!

as for the first part, you're doing it backwards
find a head you REALLY like first, and then go questing for speakers. Because in the end, its the head that fits your tone in your head, and then you have a vast expanse of cabniet and speaker combinations to try it out with to accent your abilities. Seriously man, almost all death metal bands do just fine with 4x12's and have no need for 15 inch speakers. Infact, ive never heard of a metal band using a 15 incher for guitar.

And for the second part, you're spot on. Balance yer tone.

__________________

Yeah lol I know... I'm doing it backwards. But you see my point though, right? By using the same cab with different heads, you'll be keeping one variable constant hence ensuring that the different amps' characters "come out" more. Or something like that.

As for the cab... I agree with you that a 4 x 12" is all I need but I don't know whether you remember or not... I'm currently playing a 7-string and cabs with a 15" speaker can handle the lower frequencies better, of course. I still plan on getting a 4 x 12" cab though, to put on top of the cab with the 15" speakers. It will be a full stack.

So, what about you? If I remember correctly, you said you were looking for a head too? Did you manage to find one you like yet?

K, just guna make an example here. Cannibal corpse uses 7 strings downtuned to Bb. They use mesa/crate 4x12's

Meshuggah uses 8 strings downtuned to F#. They also use mesa 4x12's or just a PA system where applicable.

The Safety Fire uses 6 strings downtuned to A, and use marshall and engl 4x12's.

I know it sounds awesome to have a 15 inch speaker to handle more low frequencies, but you will get alot of lows with a 4x12. And if you have too much bass, your tone will get muddy, and palm mutes will get loose and saggy.

Now, majority of your tone comes from your amp. Speakers only help translate it and modify it slightly to create the sound. That being said, I highly recommend getting a head you like first, and then finding a cab that sounds good with it. Yes soem cabs look good on paper, but when matched with a head it all comes down to what your ears perceive, and not what is said in writing. And the head you like might not match up well with the cab that has good statistics for what you think you want. If i were you, the way i would go about it is i would find a head i really like first, and then try it out with different cabs, even the one with the 15 inch speaker to see if it works. If it works, then all is good, but if it doesnt work, you dont have to be disappointed that you already bought the cab.

And no, i havent found the amp i want. Nobody in canada carries ENGL amps... saaaaaaaaad panda

__________________

Yeah, as a matter of fact I'm not too happy with my 7-string. Sometimes I wish I had a 6-string tuned down to Eb. (I could do that on my 7-string by tuning all seven strings down half a step but then I'd have that seventh string in the way.)

Anyhow...

Regarding amp heads... yes, you get the cab to match the head not vice versa. One has to first find a head that has the features and sound they like and then find a cab that goes well with that sound.
I guess I said I was going to get the cab first because the 7-string cabs all come with the same type of speakers (Celestion Legends 15") so there's only one kind of cab in that case. And I'm thinking of getting a full-stack so I'd have to get a second cab with 12" speakers anyway. (Of course then I'd have to try out different cabs.)

But I'm glad to say that the 'puzzle' is coming together. I'm learning more and more about amps. Now I just need to go try some amps out and see what my crazy ears like.

Oh, ENGL amps aren't available in Canada? I'm surprised. Have you tried contacting ENGL to see what they say?
And of course, you could find out where the nearest ENGL dealer in the U.S. is and go and try some amps. It depends how far you live.

another thing i thought of over the weekend regardign such cabs is whether or not you play with a bassist. Dont wanna drown him out on the low end

but yeah, about the engls, there are no dealers close to me, and if i were to import, id have to pay huge taxes on them.... and pay full price. I prefer to buy used, and there are just no used engls up here.

__________________

That's right. That's why when you downtune too much, the guitar enters bass territory and the two blend together and there's less distinction between them. I'm thinking of a certain Brutal Death Metal band that downtunes their guitars a few steps past B and as a matter of fact, the bass can't be heard distinctly.

I've said it before in some other thread. I don't think I'll ever tune down past B. As a matter of fact, B is sometimes too low for me. But for now, I'll have to stick with my 7-stringer 'cause the money I've got saved will go for a new amp and cab.

Maybe perhaps there's a sort of solution to get more clarity when you've got 7-string guitars and 5-string basses: You use the bridge pickups and stuff.

Regarding ENGL... from what you said about importing one, I get the impression that you live far from the nearest ENGL dealer in the U.S. 'cause I was thinking like you could go to the U.S. to try one and see whether you like it. (The things we go through for Metal! haha)
Or else, I don't know whether this is a good idea but you could try eBay.

i could import and/or try ebay, but then i have to pay a 7% tax, and then some brokerage fees and things that usually run to about 10%. When i imported my marshall, the price went from 800 to 1200 from these fees.

__________________

I see.

Over here in Europe, we're supposed to have tax-free import laws, but if one imports from the U.S. or other countries besides Europe, then they'd have to pay tax.

So, you'd have to pay tax even if you like drive to the U.S. and go and get it yourself? I guess this is a somewhat stupid question 'cause you'd still end up having to pay for a lot of gas, huh?