I have never owned more than a practice-sized guitar amp. Am looking into a rehearsal/gig worthy (tube)amp set-up, half-stack most likely. My question is this - there is much talk about an amp's gain(ie. 5150/6505, Engl, Recto - very high-gain heads)) but most guitarists seem to use a distortion pedal as well in my experience. Is the gain from say, a 6505 not sufficient by itself? Or is a pedal a must either way? If so, why?

Sorry if this is a stupid question - just never understood this!

Thanks

A good amp head's distortion will sound much better than a pedals distortion. The guitarists you know of possibly do not know what they are doing or are just using it as a boost pedal. All the amps you listed will sound amazing for metal distortion

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There if offcoarse a diference between distortion pedals, and pedals that add boost/overdrive.

One tries to replace the amp, the other tries to work with it.

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^ Thanks. Since I will be playing in primarily a rhythm capacity, would there really be a need for even an overdrive then? I'm really pretty set on the 6505(would love an Engl Powerbal, but at twice the Peavey...) so, I would love to keep it as simple as possible pedal-wise, etc.

I like boosting with an EQ pedal. It's handy to have, and has neutral tone.
Two birds with one stone.

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Let me break it down to you from my experience. Over the years I've played a lot of amps. The main thing you want to do is familiarize yourself with what different equipment will sound like and how speakers, amp (tube or ss) affect your tone. At this point my friends and I have come to the conclusion that the general consensus is wrong. The hiarchy for tone is this: Speaker -> Amplifier (including pedals etc) -> guitar
So your main focus should be on good speakers like something equiped with good eminence or celestions like Vintage 30s, G12-75s, Greenbacks, Legends Etc. As far as amps and what distortion to use that's up to you and your taste. For example, I don't like to suck mids like I used to because A it sounds like crap to me now and B it is IMPOSSIBLE to cut through the mix.
If you want a smooth sound distortion that isn't so harsh then stay away from solid state amps and both digital and analog pedals.

A good solid state amp can give you tons of bottom end and be extremely tight yet it will have a harsh top end and will sound harsh in general.
Tube amps have warmer tone as in darker and not so top-end heavy so they'll sound more musical and smoother and that's that's why jazz and blues players usually prefer them as well as tone purists. Digital equipment is different than both but still has a harsh and has a thin sound to it.

My recommendations:

Solid State: Randall has by far the best sound and best priced solid state amps including hybrids which use tube distortion for a less "harsh sound"

Tube: Low gain: old marshall superleads
Medium gain: Old marshall Jcm 800(boosted w/overdrive) and 900 (not reissues!) Engl amps,
Hi gain: Peavey 5150, Mesa Boogie Mark III, Soldano Slo
Digital: Just say no!

All these amps with the exception of the Soldano and engls can be had for under a grand and a good speaker cab can be purchased from avatar speakers from $450-600
If you want hi-gain, you'll be more than satisfied with a 5150\6505 combo or a Mesa Mark III unless you want a halfstack

Had the opportunity to play a 6505+ today through a Boogie 4x12. That answered all my questions along these lines! It was a freakin' gainstorm...just crushingly awesome. I'm hooked!!!

when people say they use a distortion or preamp what they are usually doing is using the clean channel ...you shouldnt need it with the 6505+...

engl as medium gain? Get your ears checked.


anyways, as for amp gain, the 6505, dual rec, engls, framus cobra/dragon all have PLENTY OF GAIN to use by themselves. The main problem is that people dial in too much bass (rectifiers, dragon), which gives it a loose attack. To compensate, lots of people use boost pedals (tubescreamers, etc) which effectively cut some bass, and add some high mids which give it a tighter attack, and make it cut better through the bandd mix.

Also, another effect of using a boost or distortion infront of a higain amp is to change its tone to something different. Perfect example is Pat O'Brien from cannibal corpse who uses a metalzone to boost his triple rectifiers. Hes not exactly adding gain in as much as hes just shaping the tone.

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