tmfreak > i'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say. the argument against hedonism isn't very well outlined. this guy doesn't sound like a pleasure pig anyways ... he's just saying he felt happier than ever before ... which makes sense based on the effects of the drug.

as for the assumptions bit, you're right, but i was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt! if you have indeed used, and you see the experience as strictly hedonistic pleasure/fantasy with no potential for self growth/awareness/understanding, or at the very least, as a much more effective and rewarding alternative to something as deplorable as ethanol, then i guess we're not on the same page!

i'm sorry about your friends. i haven't lost any yet so i can't relate to that kind of emotional baggage. but unfortunately, that's more a matter of responsibility! people need to educate themselves ... and the attitude that some of you are touting - that the dangers of drugs are beyond human control, recycled rhetoric and mysticism from the war on drugs ideology, etc - runs counter to education and safe use.

use science and the information available to your advantage. you're in a better position now than in all of history to experiment with drugs safely and responsibly. and it's a choice you should be allowed to make for yourself without the pressure of a bunch of ignorant fools booing from the sidelines.

Kleenx, that was a very good post. Very well stated.

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I agree with all of your statements except for the idea that "drugs" can be used safely and responsibly. I'm not saying all drugs aren't possibly "safe to use in moderation", but a blanket statement of thinking that somebody could take illegal drugs in a responsible manner seems a bit ridiculous. Could on take crack cocaine responsibly? Cocaine? LSD?

X probably isn't that bad of a drug (in general for basic recreation use), although... the issue i think more commonly is knowing what you get being mdma and not mdma with pcp... or another example being maijuana with purple haze, or cocaine with a little bit of bleach and other chemicals.. (crack).

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Yes, one most certainly could take these drugs responsibly and in moderation. LSD can definitely be taken responsibly, by planning out your trip, taking the right dosage, and having a sitter there in case anything goes wrong. How is that not being responsible? I also believe cocaine can be taken responsibly. Let's say you're at a party, and you're drinking and having a good time, and you take a few bumps just to enhance your mood or wake ya up a little or whatever, how is that not responsibly? You're not hurting yourself or anyone else. You're not draining your bank account for it, nor are you stealing to get money to buy more. I don't see how you can say you can't recreationally use drugs in a responsible manner.

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thx TD. it's just something i feel strongly about. i'm not trying to be argumentative.

tmfreak> it's not stupid to assume. there are safe and practical ways to test and clean your street drugs. read up! and if you're serious about drugs you'll put in some effort and get a reliable source that has clean product to begin with.

they're not good for you, but you weigh the risks and damage for yourself. personally, i don't drink anymore. i'm saving my braincells and liver health for things that i get more out of. to each their own. i'm not judging your use of it.

anyways quit it with the buzzwords and hysteria!!! you just proved my point.

'haze' is a strain of good weed, it's not an adulterant.

crack is just freebased coke. it's more economical to smoke crack than to snort coke. i don't like either, but if you need a giant ego boost and dopamine dump, there it is.

and as for PCP, if you're actually into psychedelics it's considered a viable high. it's the same class as ketamine and dxm (dissociatives) ... again it's neurotoxic so it's not something you want to smoke daily, but to get to the farthest reaches of consciousness, it's an option.

there's no reason to vilify a substance just because some maniac goes on a rampage naked. look at how many lives alcohol has ruined. look at how many zombies prozac et al have created. but fuck it ... i'm not going to tell someone what's best for them.

not everyone loves weed and booze. some of us aren't content with the shitty stat quo, and writing off the rest of the catalog without research and experimentation is stupid.

Not really. There's a lot of things being addressed in this thread, but I'd like to just pick out this one to talk about.

There are an assload of people who do take drugs to escape a painful or dull reality, but this is not something that applies to all drug users. A lot of people who experiment with psychedelics (myself included) usually do so to enhance reality - not to run away from it. Its an alternative way to explore, interperate, and experience yourself and the world around you by opening up new thought processes (TakeFrancis Crick for example the "nobel prize-winning father of modern genetics" who, on LSD deduced the DNA's double-helix structure. ). In the case of the psychedelic's abilities to focus on insecurities as I believe you mentioned before - thats the substance emphasising a strong (and for the sake of the argument, negative) reality and is probably calling it to your attention so you can, if you're smart enough, work on it.

For me, psychedelics have only proved their worth. It has shown me faults in my personality and enhanced my sense of wonder about existence. Now, and this is important, it is absolutley true that this can all be done without the aid of a substance and, in my opinion, its a much more fruitful and rewarding experience to accomplish these things without any chemical help but, it certainly doesn't hurt to have 10 years of psychotherapy by your favorite philosopher and a lesson in reality by Hawkings packed into a 6-12 hour experience a few times in your life.

I strongly suggest checking out Aldous Hux.'s essay The Doors of Perception in which he describes his encounter with mescaline.

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Wow, i disagree with the haphazhardness treatment of every drug mentioned. Purple haze btw is commonly used to describe LSD, (not good weed, in the case i was mentioning.)

There is no way ever i'll agree that stret drugs such as crack/heroin/pcp can be taken responsibly. The only way you can be responsible is not to take them at all. The highly addictive and destructive power alone say that treating them like some sort of just fun thing you can do when you want is (to me) dangerous.

What the hell are you talking about with buzzwords and hysteria?

What difference does it make if somebody judges my use of alcohol? Even if i judge your use of drugs what difference does it make?

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I've never heard "Purple Haze" used to describe anything other than good weed. But either way, Alcohol, according to recent British and German studies, is more dangerous of a drug (in terms of health-related problems, social problems, and financial problems) than LSD, Weed, Ecstasy.

As far as health-related issues, That's very true, at least in comparison to LSD and weed. Not so sure about the X, but you may be right. LSD actually causes no harmful negative physical side effects...none at all. All effects of LSD are mental. Technically, it's probably the physically safest drug to use..even safer than tylonol. We all already know about weed, so no need for me to preach that haha. Heroin is another relatively safe drug, believe it or not. The physical side effects of heroin itself are rather minimal, but the problems with this drug tend to arise in the lifestyle of the junkie and often what the drug is cut with. It's really almost no different than morphine or any other prescription opiate painkiller (vicodin, oxycodone, etc.) and other than the addictive potential, a 80 year old man can easily live on these drugs, so its easy to see how minimal of a toll it takes on the body. Now I'm not telling everyone to go out and shoot heroin and drop acid every day because it's good for you haha, but I'm just adding to Kalmah's point that just because alcohol is legal, doesn't make it any less dangerous, and vice versa.

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I agree. But that wasn't what i was refering to.

LSD isnt' something i'm even really refering to with any of my arguments. Its not very common, its not addictive, (although it can really fuck you up but that its self is pretty uncommon or rare.)

A bad batch of lsd can definitely cause lasting effects on you but its not a common thing.

All these point are trying to say is that drugs although sometimes aren't as bad as people play they definitely aren't a thing that has good lasting effects.

Alcohol causes more problems because in general because its legal and socially acceptable so there are far more statistics of people using it and causing problems.

What if LSD was legal and mass produced, think people could drive safetly using that substance? Or ecstasy?

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It wouldn't likely be the batch of lsd, unless it was cut with something else that was harmful.

it's mostly the individual's reaction to the lsd. the effects are unpredictable.

As far as driving while tripping, most people would be extremely reticent to do it......but the problem would not lie with the impairment of motor skill functions like that of being drunk or on sedatives, it would have to do with the person's cognitive functions and psychological state.

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tmfreak if you want to preach harm reduction, the best way is to know the facts and let them speak for themselves. the perpetuation of these ridiculous urban legends and confused slang and other disinformation is not helping anyone. the info is out there that's the great thing about being online. you may need to reevaluate what you've come to know from misinformed burned out kids in your town, or what your dealer told you. just please PLEASE stop talking out of your ass. the more people who think and act in a reactionary way as such, the harder it is for the rest of us to make progress. it's a political issue, so your opinion and influence does indeed matter (with ref to your above question).

If LSD were legalized and mass-produced, I'm sure there'd be an initial rise in use...but do you really think EVERYONE is going to go out and try LSD just cause it's legal? Also, I'm sure the last thing on someone's mind while amid a good trip is driving somewhere. The thing about alcohol is that it's such a gross party drug that people go to parties, get drunk, then think they're fine and drive home. LSD isn't a party drug, I'm sure most people dropping acid are doing it at home alone or with a friend or two. I don't think ecstasy alters one's perception enough to render him or her incapable of driving. I think it'd be more dangerous waking up early at 4:30 A.M. and attempting to drive somewhere dead tired than driving while amped up on ecstasy.

You shouldn't make a drug illegal though because it's dangerous to drive on. Driving is inherently dangerous anyway. That's almost like saying knives should be illegal because it's dangerous to let children play with them.

Is it illegal anywhere to drive while extremely tired?

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Yes.



This is misleading for a variety of reasons. You are correct that a great deal of the problems relating to heroin use are largely resultant of IV usage and the generally bummy, grungy lifestyle of junkies. You are also correct that some problems are largely a result of the stunning array of additives used to cut the drugs (blood clots, etc.).

However, pure, unadulterated heroin is more likely to result in a deadly overdose and is not safe by any means. It's generally well known that the street sale level heroin is the purest here in the northeast states (esp. MA, NY, NJ, PA, MD). I don't have any statistics in front of me to look at, but I would guess that the fatal overdose percentage is considerably higher out here as well.

Also extremely important is the fact that heroin is easily the most addictive of the illicit drugs, more than crack cocaine, meth, or any of the other drugs we think of as highly addictive. In addition to the extreme psychologically addictive aspects also attributable to all other illegal drugs, heroin (and opiates in general) drastically alter your body chemistry in such a way that you don't just think you need heroin- you DO need heroin, simply to function. The physical addiction is so powerful that people can die just from trying to go cold turkey.

Considering that the addiction factor is extreme, this also worsens the psychological aspects of the drug, especially regarding the almost guaranteed likelihood of destructive, sociopathic, and criminal behavior.

I'm not trying to school you here, and I'm sure you know all this. The facts you represent in your post are incomplete, however, and don't come close to weighing the dangerousness of pure heroin.

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It was a single example, thats not what I base my entire opinion/argument on. Thats so inherently obvious its not even worth mentioning.

Kleenx: No, my opinion matters as much as one takes it, and yours as well. You can believe all you want that your bickering and unrealistic arguments on here make a difference when they dont.

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actually, meth is the most addictive drug known to man, at the moment. I believe the current recovery rate for a heroin addict is 15% of users end up becoming clean. I believe the recovery rate for meth is around 2%. That's a huge difference. And you are wrong, you actually cannot die from heroin withdrawal, though you may feel like you will die, you actually cannot die from the withdrawal itself. While on the other hand alcohol and Benzodiazipines (pardon my spelling) have potentially deadly withdrawals and are much more serious than that of heroin. I do have to agree with all your other points though.

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I'm surprised at how interesting and effective this thread turned out.

Has anyone here tried heroin?

I have. Heroin is big in my area. I actually don't know too many people around here who haven't tried it.

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Are you from the Northeast? Heroin is something I never seen down here in Florida, neither on the west nor east coast. I've seen everything from 2C-I to DMT to bricks of cocaine but never heroin. What is the high like? Is it similar to anything you've experienced, or is it even describable? Did you take it IV?

I'm from Northeastern Pennsylvania, about 1.5 - 2 hours north of Philly. It's not much different from any other opiate like vicodin or oxycodone, or anything like that. It's not like incredibly unbelievable or "1000x better than sex" or any of the ridiculous things you've heard i'm sure. Snorting a bag of heroin is virtually no different than popping a few vicodin. As for shooting it, the only real difference is you get a head rush for a few min after doing it (because it's all hitting you at once and very quickly), but once that goes away it is no different than had you have snorted it, except you need a substantial amount less to obtain the same high.

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They make it seem so enjoyable in Trainspotting

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Heroin is more addictive than meth, but there is also significantly better treatment for it. Methadone alone should make up for any difference in percentages and then some. In meth dependence is only psychological, and I'm sure recovery rates would be much higher if 1. meth was taken as seriously as heroin, 2. the government helped wean you off with a swank ass ritalin prescription.



You might be right on the death thing, but this is what I learned from the director of a large treatment clinic in a hellhole full of junkies. I did also learn about the alcohol withdrawal thing during that same trip and was much more surprised about that one. It's still amazing to me (from a moral and logical perspective) that alcohol is legal and marijuana isn't.

EDIT: We had also discussed the usage of methadone (a dangerously addictive opiate in it's own right) and it was explained that the necessity is based within the serious physical danger of heroin withdrawal. A quick google search does note that those may include stroke, heart attack, and death in the more extreme cases.

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Methadone withdrawal can be very deadly. I don't really see the point of giving people methadone, really. There's much better treatments out there, such as Suboxone, which is a mericle drug if you ask me. Suboxone is a combination of Buprenorphine, a mild opioid and Naloxone, an opiate blocker so if the drug is taken any other way than sublingual, it will prevent the user from experiencing a high and also prevents the user from getting high off any other kind fo opiate while on the drug. So if a user is to use heroin, they will experience immediate withdrawl symptoms, from what I understand. Basically a heroin addict would replace heroin with Suboxone, and ween themselves off that and experiencing mild to no withdrawl effects, without getting high.

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just don't do meth or heroin.

I had the craziest mushroom trip last saturday. Involved extreme feelings of joy, a feeling I uncovered all worlds mysteries, and seeing the floor waving, my hands pulsating, and basically a lot of cool colours. Loved every second of it.

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they're so cheap in the US right now ... that ties into the popularity. and E gets cut with meth so that's why we were recommending the test kits to the OP.

TD> what kind of prices are you seeing for rx opioids right now in comparison to H? it seems like H may be poised to make a comeback.

50 cents per mg is usually standard for rx opioids, but i've seen them as much as a dollar a mg in the cities. H is much much cheaper at $20 a bag. and a good bag of H is much stronger than 80mg of oxycodone, so you do the math. And when bought in bulk, H can be much less than $10 a bag even.

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Ecstasy Loops
That pic looks kinda wrong... doesn't it?

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despite my contrary opinions on X , i took some. it was fucking weak though. i even chewed it up and it really did have any effect on me - fucking placebo.

idk if you're on other meds, but those can sometimes interfere ... certain anti-depressants (ssri/snri), anti-psychotics, large amounts of benzos etc. could have been bogus pills tho. gotta use the test drops.

Usually SSRIs, and especially MAOIs help most drugs and I can't think of an instance of them making them not work. They mork differently, but he'd still feel something regardless.

As for anti-psychotics and the like.. no idea. Benzos I doubt he was on.

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Some guy probably sold you Tylenol. lololol.

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600 dollars down the drain for your friends lolz....

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His friends bought LSD, not E.

My drummer's brother got in trouble a long time ago because he'd sell younger kids asprin (I can't remember the brand, but it actually had the letter "E" imprinted on it) and pass it off as ecstasy. The funny thing is that some of them would always come back to him for more!

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Ahh i see...

Anyway reminds me of the time when we were at school, and a buddy of mine decided to fuck with this guy that no one liked. He went picked some frass stright off the ground and rolled it up in a rolling paper, asked the guy to smoke. We'll the guy asked did he want any my boy said no just enjoy it, the guy starts walking around acting like he's all high and stuff....my buddy looks at him and goes(right time the bell rings) o yea that wasn't weed just grass off the ground. Priceless...

Also had a similar incident with Vodka ones.

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http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml
idk if you can external link to erowid? that page has got some studies.

but here's a quote from wiki ...
"Individuals who have stopped taking any type of SSRI after prolonged medication may not be able to experience the desired effects of MDMA for as long as several months following discontinuation of the medication. This is due to the fact that SSRIs decrease the brain's sensitivity to the presence of serotonin as the brain seeks to reestablish a normal neuro-electrical balance."

and one from mdmanet (i don't know how accurate this one is)...
"A sustained regimen of SSRIs largely blunts MDMA's empathogenic and entactogenic effects. SSRIs inhibit the binding of MDMA to the serotonin transporter. Thus pre-treatment with SSRIs prevents MDMA-triggered serotonin-release; and this in turn reduces dopamine-release in the striatum."

i didn't know this stuff at the time when i was on an ssri, but i definitely noticed a difference. any kind of recreational serotonin-related drug seemed to be muted ... i had to dose a lot higher. apparently there's a risk of 'serotonin syndrome' but i was unaware at the time so i'd just dose really high. stupid me.

you're right about maoi's being potentiators though. it's a big faux pas to mix them unless you know exactly what you're doing. there are naturally occurring sources that are used in traditional shamanistic kind of preparations, like ayahuasca etc. strong stuff.

benzos and anti-psychotics are used as trip killers. idk i just tossed it out there as a possibility ... quetiapine is widely prescribed for sleep right now, and clonazepam for anxiety.

The X was just really low-dosage. =/

Good post, Kleenx. I'll have to crack open a few books later to double check that but I can see it working that way (concerning the SSRIs).

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Just had the best two nights of my life.

Well, I'm getting hold of some morphine pills

About 30mg insufflated should get me high, but I'm paying $15 per pill

I don't know how much the pills are, but I have a feeling I'm getting ripped off... I've heard that 50 cents per mg is a standard street price, so I hope I'm getting a lot out of this.

Oh, and Requiem, mind explaining?

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50 cents per mg is standard price on all opiates. ($40 for oxy 80, $5 for 10mg vicodin, etc.)

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mmmmm morphine *drools*

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Special K based xtc. mmmmm

K is the most boring drug known to man. It's the only drug that I did and was actually just bored. It's pointless.

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I'm pretty sure Naked Red Ladies are based from Ket. It was an absolutely amazing drug. I don't know if your MDMA levels were messed up when you took it but for me and my friends it was great. Our consensus was that we had the best night of our lives.

where you gettin ur shit man? i get 200mg morphs for $20. 80mg oxy for maybe 10-15. i think ur gettin hosed bro.

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nah man, i've seen oxy 80's for as much as 80. I've never paid that much, but i've seen people do it. 50 cents a mg is standard price. If you're getting an oxy 80 for 10-15 then that's either amazing and you should buy them out and go somewhere else and resell them for standard price or they're not really oxy 80s. Or maybe you just know someone who has them and don't know what they're really worth. I never fucked with morphine tabs so I'm really not sure about them, i just assume they are like every other opiate. I'm not gettin hosed, that's just the prices around here. Then again, i just realized you're in Canada.. maybe the supply and demand is much different up there, but if you come down to America (well, the NE region is the only one i can vouch for) you wont find them for less than 50 cents per mg

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Yeah Pan, you're just paying really LOW prices

Requiem, I think you and your friend are kinda like me and my friend, in that we both are familiar with the "best nights of our lives". For us its just opiate pills instead of E.

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I hate you, Reqtum. I hate anyone that posts "Best night of my life" on the MT boards.

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yeah ur probably right.



idk why, but i always thought you were Canadian.

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Any color of any press can mean anything. Naked Ladies are such a generic and common press too. Anyone can copy a press and there's no way to know what's in it unless you test the pill. I don't think Ketamine and MDMA would be that great of a mixture. Just stay safe if you plan on doing more in the future.

Anyone know anything about "Spice Gold?"

Well, there is a website that shows almost ALL the available E from today, right? I'm pretty sure somebody here posted it (not erowid, but maybe they have a link on there).

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www.pillreports.com

www.ecstasydata.org

That's the one I was thinking of. They have a shitload on both.

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Spice is ok the first few times but it is far from real weed. You get that confused and retarded feeling but none of the funny ones.

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try IM'ing it next time

Intra-muscular? How about IV?

Do you have an injection story to share? I'd be interested to read it

I have not injected anything, though. Just putting that out there.

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not personally no intranasal was always enough. but my more experienced friends swear on IM.

re IV ... there's this notorious guy on a board i frequent and he says IV'd K is the best drug experience on earth, and this he's favoring over an IV speedball (coke+H) and crack. IV'd K+MDMA is his personal fave. so i guess it is an option lol

Fuck, that guy sounds hardcore

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haha you godamn junkies.

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Fuck yeah Getting X for $6 a tab.

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Just got hold to a batch of red buddahs.

I did 20mg of focalin (dexmethylphenidate) and it was great until the comedown (right now). But the low only lasted about ten minutes, then I ate and drank and it all felt much better.

I wonder if I'll ever do E or psychedelics, because right now I have no clue if I'll be too interested in experimenting with them. Oxy is fine for me

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Ritalin? Did you have a final or something?

I have finals soon, but I like using this stuff to just get work done or listen to really fast music.

It's also not Ritalin, but very much like it. Ritalin is just methylphenidate, but this is dexmethylphenidate (aka 2-times methylphenidate). So it's twice as potent and a lot cleaner and more fun. I'm on it again now and it makes Prodigy very interesting.

It's not at all a purely recreational drug (because it's not a real amphetamine) but it can sure induce a good head rush if you're doing the right activity.

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Has anyone tried dimenhydrinate?

9:00 PM: I consume this beauty by oral use. Noting this early in my report this is
going to be a roll at my house while watching television, gaming on WoW and
lurking the chans(opps broke rule #1 and 2#)

9:20 PM: Already feeling my rush. Euphoric effects and the fan blowing on me is stelar.
Pupils not fully dilated yet.

9:30 PM: Not quit sure why I'm already making another section to this but I have to inform
you guys after just 30 minutes the rush is full and I'm feeling extremely euphoric
unlike any other tab i've tried. In 30 minutes I'll make another entry and describe my
shower. Pupils huge as a rabbits. This is a sublime roll.

9:50 PM: My shower is over and the warm water felt amazing. I'm incline to believe
like others who have wrriten reviews over this tab that it's near-pure MDMA. No
traces of hypothermia. Not affected by the temperature of my house. I lathered myself
with soap 3 times due to the euphoric feeling of it. I've been swimming on other tabs
and showered and I was always rendered shaking, not now. Mild teeth clenching began
so I cured with it a piece of Trident Citrus gum. Being playing techno and television
goes off. Sudden urges of empathy. Apologize for recent conflicts.

10:30 PM: Begin my long, hopefully(?), conquest of playing WoW with my mate.
Playing in bed with a lappy. Fan blowing on me, listening to Chiodos. All music is enchanced.
Completely carefree at the moment and exploding with empathy. Teeth grinding becomes a
bit more obvious but it's not drastic. Repented myself with my mother - thanks empathy.

11:00pm - 1:00am: Roll remains consistent. Very happy, giddy and making easy conversation with my
friends online. Techno becomes my music of choice and teeth cleenching remains the same - moderate
at the most. Empathy remains.

1:00am: Roll is dimishing at a great rate(i'm sure it's due to my environment and recent
use of MDMA.). Nothing really euphoric, moderate empathy, and no teeth cleenching.
Trying to sleep because I have plans in the morning. Next addendum will be from the morning.

Afterwards: Next morning had no feelings of the tab in my system, was a bit drowzy, and I was
able to sleep that night with ease.

...for the love of God, someone please kill this thread.

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see, BB, this is a good example of why you should be a mod

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Yep, no need for a thread about drugs ( with reviews!!! )

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meh, i tripped balls on mushroom for the fifth time yesterday. It was fucking awesome again. Thats all you need to know

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Thanks. Although we all saw how much progress was resolved in the "PST Replacement" thread.

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If you replace any word referring to E in Reqtum's post with "sperm" or "cock", it makes a lot more sense. I feel so bad for the poor soul - his only source of entertainment is E, WoW, and MT.

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I offer my apologies in advanced for posting this, but I couldn't resist.

That was gay and read like a mad lib completed by a giddy 2nd grader after taking his first sex ed class.

Don't worry, estring, i found it to be quite funny.

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Bahaha, I love this:

"I lathered myself with sperm 3 times due to the euphoric feeling of it. I've been swimming on other cocks and showered and I was always rendered shaking, not now."

Oh man, I'm fucking dying reading that over and over to myself. I think the pot helps.

Now that I think of it, maybe Req did get laied.

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haha. The truth exposed.

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Requiem, go here: Talk About Drug Experiences On A Drug Forum

I'm registered as "Euphorial"

Now this thread can die in peace.

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This is actually pretty cool shit, seeings it's just a video on youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-_NneB5fmY&NR=1

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yeah that is pretty neat

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