I'm finally jamming with people and we're composing songs and I'm not having difficulties learning the riffs but actually the arrangements, so I took out a sheet of paper figuring it would be useful if I wrote the riff order and repetitions and minute transitions here and there but I had NO FUCKIN CLUE what to write so basically I started giving the riffs really silly names but that actually helped me remember what each are.

Ie:

Intro slam-trem pick. x8
Melody trem pick x8
2nd melody + palm mute on end
Melody trem pick
2nd melody + palm mute on end
transition x1
octave chord shit x2
etc.

There are way more different riffs so it's not something I can remember just watching the other dude playing it 2 or 3 times.

I also wrote down some name for a riff called dun dun trrrr.

Seriously, does anyone here do this when writing songs with other people? How do you go about doing it? Do you actually write down the entire tab for every riff? That seems very time consuming and ineffective.

Does anyone have any interesting ways of writing down/visualizing song structures? I'd love to know anything that would make writing and remembering songs we've jammed to more efficient.

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I like designating riffs alphanumerically. Your first riff, call it A1. If you can, remember the time sig, bar length and BPM of it ( At least this is what I do when I record riffs. I'm able to document it in the file name with something like "A144250", A1 being the riff title, 4/4 is time sig, 250 is the BPM ). When dealing with a band mate, you'll both know from memory what the riff sounds like. If you come up with a variation on that riff to follow it with, call it A2. If you follow A2 with a completely different sounding riff ( like something that kicks into a verse ), then its B1. If you play B1 twice and want to modify the third time the riff is played to modulate into a chorus with different chords/techniques, then B2. If your chorus has three different riffs, then C1, C2, C3. If its one riff repeated several times, then try C1 x3 if you want to repeat C1 three times. If you play tech-death or something like that then you might exhaust the alphabet, so go with AA1, BB1, so forth. This is the system that I like to use, personally.

The letter set represents the "idea" of the riff, the number can indicate how its carried out. A1 could be straight ahead chugs, while A2 could be the same idea but with pinch harmonics thrown in, but you want to differentiate between the two riffs. So instead of "The squealy riff that comes after the chug-chug riff in the beginning", you have "A2." When you're dealing with a lot of musicians who play mainly by ear and musical ideas often blur into each other ( metal ), I think this system is helpful and organized.

Not a bad idea john Holland!

I go with traditional way: Riff 1 (a/b/c) riff 2 (a/b/c)...ect..

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Yeah John that sounds cool but like you said there are tons of riffs that share nothing in common in 1 song we have done, plus I really can't distinguish riffs by letter and number you know, of course it makes sense if I go alphanumerically but the number/letter doesn't help me remember what it sounded like. I think this might work for something with much more catchiness and a central theme in the song.

BTW I don't need to know the bpm/signature I mean I know how it goes already because it's in my head, plus I'm not a human metronome so I don't know how much 250bpm is without looking at a guitarpro file. Thanks for the input, any other ideas?

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I pretty much have to use that system if I want to organize my thinking within tech-metal. "I really can't distinguish riffs by letter and number you know" <--- You can if you try. If you practice a riff enough while thinking about what you're calling it you'll recall it when its time. No one seems to have a perfect system, but its what we get for not running with sheet music.

Very true, but who in metal really goes to an audition or rehearsal and asks for sheets of the material?

My system is very similar to Johns in that I write out the riff name, then how many repeats, it all tends to look a bit like this:

Intro Riff X 4
Riff 2 X 8
Chorus Riff X6
Riff 2 X 6
Verse Riff X 8
Riff 3 X 5
Verse Riff X 7
Chorus Riff X 12 (2nd six with PM ending)
Bridge X 6
Breakdown X 12
Verse Riff X 5
Riff 3 X 5
Outro Riff X 16

This example is pretty dodgy, but I play a breed of tech metal with a bit of hardcore/metalcore thrown in to the mix.

Of course your riff names may be different and so on, this system keeps me on check when I'm learning and even when I'm writing a new song, I can generally keep the idea of how each riff goes and thus, look at my "Cheat Sheet", find out how many repetitions and when to change riffs. Plus you can add notes on different variants. I go from there and try and work off drums cues after that.

Also Try out a few different systems on songs that you listen to and try to write out IT's structure, you'll soon get comfortable with one.

Hopefully this helps you out a bit.

Laurie

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I just write very simple riffs that are all derived from each other and sound alike. That way, if you screw up, nobody can tell the difference

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Hey if you guys to start a band, be sure to let us know so we can listen

Heh I'm in a band we just haven't rehearsed with the full band yet(drummer), just writing songs with the other guitarist and when we have em done we're passing them to the drummer and he'll come up with parts and we'll eventually hit up a rehearsal place and try it out.

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I always write in powertab. You can't go wrong with it and you can practice the songs in the correct tempo at home.

Similar here. I tab all riffs/songs for my band mates and vice versa.

I usually think in terms of themes, a bit like the A1, A2... system. Although it's good to group all riffs that follow eachother in the same order into one. Like in many of Death's song Crystal Mountain, you can group it into ABA, with like an ellipsis or something to stand for the outro'.

1000th post! Whoo! And what a shite post, unless someone feels genuinely aided by those words...

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create the basic ideas/root riffs
they arent necessarily basic riffs in themselves but will have a beginning middle and an end

stick together all those that I feel make sense together - riffs with a similar colour.

Start with what I know for sure I want as an intro, and some times I have in mind what I want as an outro or certain elements.

Then bridge all these together, not with riffs so much but just passages. I feed off all the riff ideas I've gotten together and say Im bridging between A and B, ill suggest or hint at parts of B in A and so on, and also include little parts from later in the song.

I find this gives a good resolution sometimes when you hit on a section you've subtly been hinting at, and I find it to make more sense when writing songs than a defined riff being repeated etc.

I never understood, why riffs are repeated like (Ax4 then Bx2) At least, for my type of music, it makes more sense to make each part actually mean something; I'll write a riff to mean something, so if I copy and paste that (metaphorically speaking) in a song later on, it doesnt make sense to me unless I want to restate my message.

Dont know if this makes sense to anyone?
I wish I'd done some earlier stuff like this though.

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I tried using this method a few times in jam sessions, but eventually found that recording our jams was WAY more effective. Writing is always going to be an approximation and a "best guess" type scenario.

But if labeling riffs and stuff works, then by all means do it! Whatever gets the job done.