It's really easy to get a gun on the street here in the U.S. I understand your point of view, Mansley, but if we took the guns away from everyone, no one would have a gun except for the thugs who would never pay any heed to such laws. They'd be able to confidently walk into anyone's home knowing the owner's only defense would be with a knife, a bat or to run.

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the problem doesn't come from our constitution though. true, if guns were completely banned..it would be a bit harder to obtain one..but it wouldn't make it impossible. look at how well prohibition worked. and as far as i know..there are still criminals in the uk that can obtain guns..albeit illegally. when that criminal breaks into your house to rape your wife and you have to fight him off with a baseball bat..i wish you luck.

consider how many people in this country have guns, then compare that to the amount of crazy people that would do something like this. i think you see my point there. i mean..say someone decided to start randomly running people down with a truck. the govt isn't going to ban vehicles because there are a handful of psychos out there running people over.

and lastly..just to bust your chops..."We've since decided we don't want anything to do with your country" i just chuckled when i read that because over the last couple years it seems like blair is bush's lapdog. i guess he is trying to get away from bush a little more now..

At this point, a change in the legislation wouldn't be very effective at getting rid of the guns in circulation across the country, and it certainly wouldn't be able to fight the ingrained American attitude that we need guns. It's simplistic to believe that you can legislate against something as powerful as that. We'd end up with gun collectors having become criminals and regular criminals still able to get guns.

Anyway, I remember reading in this thread that his serial numbers were filed off. While the legal gun market certainly feeds the illegal one, it's hard to blame our gun laws for his having illegally acquired a pistol. Now, there are serious flaws in America that lead to this, but if Europeans can't figure out that it's something other than our laws, they'll never be able to contribute usefully to the discussion.

Hilarious.

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Does anyone know where I can download the manifesto without any journalist prick talking over it?

Can't use P2P

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.............................................................. You're going to fit in here.

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Ah, but if a burglar knew that he was likely to come face to face with a gun-weilding homeowner he'd surely "come prepared", no? The vast majority of burglaries (and any other form of violence for that matter) over here do not involve firearms.

I read a statistic this week that 30,000 Americans die each year as a result of firearms. Now, I don't know the exact figure but pro rating to the UK population, I know for certain that there are not 5,000 firearm related deaths in the UK each year. What's the difference? Is it that Americans are more hotheaded and likely to blow their neighbour's head off? Are they more susceptible to going on killing sprees? Are they more easily influenced by violent movies? Or is there just a higher proportion of nutters per capita? I don't think so - to me, it's entirely down to the availability of guns.

I don't believe that banning guns will immediately solve the problem, but it's clear that some sort of action has to be taken over and above George Bush being trotted out to say how tragic the events were. Repealing the second amendment and vastly tightening the regulations concerning the ownership of firearms would be a start. The whole mentality of gun ownership has to be challenged and changed over the course of one, two, maybe three generations. Somebody has to get the ball rolling. Michael Moore tried and hit a brick wall; it needs to be a politician with genuine power, probably as far up as the secretary of state or even the president.

Around 15 years ago in Dunblane, Scotland, a madman went apeshit in a junior school, slaughtering a dozen kids with a machette. The action the British government took? Introduced new legislation to clamp down on the sale of knives. The availability of such dangerous weapons was drastically reduced and the police were given the power to confiscate knives. Thankfully, a similar event hasn't occurred since.

I'm not so naiive to believe that the Virginia Tech events would definitely have been avoided if similar laws where in place (particularly in light of him having illegally obtaining the weapons) but legislation that limits a person to buying "just" twelve firearms per year and doesn't regulate trade fairs, for example, is not going to reduce gun related deaths.

Something has to be done, but simply condemning the perpatrators of such lethal crime and pussy-footing around the pro-gun lobby is not going to bring about a solution.

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i think that is a particularly valid point. i'm totally with John on that one.

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neither does American burglaries.


I think this is just where me and you definitely differ. The amount of gun owners and enthusiasts who use them responsibly in my opinion vastly out weighs the need to remove them all together.


The weapons that are used in the majority of gun crimes are generally illegally obtained, and are almost ALWAYS pistols. So you think that just because there is alot of gun crime commited generally by poor people in cities with pistols you should remove rifles and other firearms all together?

In my opinion banning weapons all together is looking at the situation and just completely going over board. Zooming in on the problems and major occurences should be focused on instead of taking weapons from everybody hands. If this is the mind set of the "typical american" and it differs than typical Brit or European so be it. Thats why we aren't them and they aren't us.


Oh and for the record he obtained both pistols LEGALLY and for some fucking reason filed the serial numbers off. He got one of them in january and the other in feburary.

Also the majority of crimes commited with pistols are in the heat of the moment things and completely unlike VA techs incident, which was completely and totally planned out. As i see it using this incident in ways is almost groundless on both sides of the arguement for gun control because of the nature of the "randomness" and pure planning that was done prior to it.

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As do I. Gun laws in Canada are fairly strict, and you have to go through a lot to obtain your license, gun permit and even purchase a gun. Hell, I don't even know where I could buy a gun since wal-mart/canadian tire/etc stopped carrying rifles and shotguns several years ago.

I've never fired a real gun, only held a handful of registered guns(pp7, 45 magnum with scope, ar-15) from my friend's dad collection. I once held an illegal sawed off that a friend of a friend owned...but does anyone understand how hard it is to get a gun here?

Edit - And how hard is it to get an illegal gun in the states? I've read several books written by American gang members and in everyone of them they would describe breaking into houses/gun stores to obtain them.

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On the issue of American firearm-death statistics, aren't criminal deaths (ie police shootings) and legitimate homicides (ie self-defence homicides) counted as well? If so, then obviously the "30,000 deaths" figure wouldn't be representative of the actual murders per year.

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I'm surprised no one's kicked the shit out of these assholes yet.

I do get a kick out of this group though:
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/

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Its within their rights, but its definitely a serious case of, just because you can doesn't mean you should. And thats something these people really don't grasp. I could do alot of ridiculous shit to them, but it doesn't mean i should.

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That's a joke site.

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To be perfectly honest i just feel sorry for the guy. Completely deranged. Come on, you can call him a sick fucker in anger all you want, but he was seemingly a pretty fragile person to begin with. and on top of that basically everyone taunted him for his accent and speech. believe me i know how irritating that can be. i have permanantly damaged vocal cords from tube ventilation as a severely premature newborn. i sound like i have a shitty deathgrowl or a serious cold.( and no i'm not trying to elicit sympathy.) for constant taunting to be heaped on such an unstable character.....no wonder he didnt "make conversation" with people...that shit sticks in your psyche for ever. IN NO WAY am i saying anyone except him is responsible for this. i think its completely fucked, and disgusting. i wonder how his family feel after seeing all the media reports etc. of him doing all his shit, not to mention having to cope with his death. sorry if i seem too "soft" for those of you with a cold take-no-prisoners attitude but i happen to actually feel sorry for people sometimes. this insane person happens to be one of those people.if anyone thinks i'm condoning what he did, well you're missing the point. this issue will not go away. sorry i have to be so defensive, but thatre are a lot of insensitive people on this board who jump down anyones throats. i don't want to offend anyone, i'm just adding my point of view.

That's why I get a kick out of it. If it was for real I'd be sickened by it like I am with Westboro.

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For sure, it would only result in probably jail and your face pasted to every news outlet for a couple days. But I'd have a seriously tough time with self control if they picketed at a family member's funeral like they've done to so many so it's surprising that no one's lost their mind and gone ape shit so far.

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I think alot of people are viewing this as a case of 33 tragically killed. My school held a moment of silence to coincide with V. Tech's and it was in rememberance of 33 dead. No one excuses him for what he did (other than Westboro), but the fact is something fucked up in his mind led to this. Of course there are gonna be some angry ones out there that have no way of being objective about this, but I think alot of people view this as more than just some evil blood thirsty devil killing people.

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So what's the solution? Leave things as they are? Thirty thousand people die in America each year because of guns. If half of those lives could be saved by introducing strict gun control then surely it is worth it.

Maybe Charlton Heston could join a gun club that doesn't allow guns to be taken off site. Such clubs would allow true enthusiasts to shoot tin cans or whatever it is they want to shoot while strict ownership laws run concurrently. I don't see how responsible gun owners could argue with this action if it led to a reduction in gun-related deaths.

There shouldn't be any reason for people to have such easy access to guns. And don't give me that "defending your property" and "every man's home is his castle" bullshit - the majority of the developed world does fine without the need to resort to firearms.

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100% correct. All other arguments to the contrary are rendered invalid.

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they'd have to abolish the second admendment for what you are talking about to be fully realised.

thats what it takes. so restricting legal guns doesnt address the large amount of murders/crimes caused by illegal weapons which is a greater concern by many orders of magnitude.

we already have this enviroment where the streets are flooded with drugs and illegal guns. the gangs and organised crime groups dont manufacture any of this stuff and this debate on our 2nd admendment usually always hovers around our failed "war on drugs" policy, from which the majority of the statistics you cite come from.

as far im concerned.....things are the way they because its been profitable, its a little cash cow/food chain/ecosystem. drug money is invested on wall street, street crime justifies invasive/repressive laws against the people, the prison industry is expanding fat on government money, all this stuff creates a atmosphere for people being more dependent on law enforcement....government subsidization unto the expansion of law enforcement, alot of politicians build thier careers upon maintaining the status quo by appearing to combat this maelstorm of misery, imprisonment and death that further divides/distracts and makes subserviant/dependent the people etc,etc,etc.

so the question on legal gun control is addressing the ownership by a segment of the population that in an overwhelming majority is not included in the drug war, that is not involved in organised crime and gang culture, because those elements of society<career criminals>are better off owning illegal guns anyway.

so i would agree with you on the pretense that less guns=less crime, i agree we should screen for people with mental illness and exculed them thier right. id agree wholeheartedly.

but if we actually were address what constitutes gun related crime thats another matter. if we actually had a sane border policy that combats the smuggling in this country and decriminalised drugs as a means to abolish the incentive for drug dealing and therefore illegal ownership.........we'd actually be getting somewhere.

the virginia tech shooting doesnt represent the fundamental cause of why we have so many gun related deaths, the shooter obviously knew the media would be eating this up and news networks are giving him exactly what he intended......and these crimes are a reality of a armed society, no doubt, but the scenerio of the lone wolf......kinda like "taxi driver" but buying legal firearms is a rare case.

alot of these rampage shooting, you have to admit, is fueled by the sensation.

i just think responsible people should legally arm against both elements of the drug war, the gangs and mafiosa AND the government............... because both sides SUCK...............and most importantly, ARM against psychotics who rampage with legally obtained firearms.

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Honestly you are making up shit as you go. There isn't an ounce of this that you could prove one way or another other than truly our opinion.

Where is the proof that tightening gun control will reduce it by half?
Who says people can't break into these "clubs" and steal the guns there?
And once again you are lumping all firearms into one.

Pistols are the MAJORITY of gun crime. How you can sit here and argue that all weapons need to be removed without even acknowledging that, is pretty ridiculous.

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I would just stop explaining man. It has been explained over and over.

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pah! and over..

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Your objectivity is amazing.

It's only about 11,000 murders via guns in the U.S. The rest are through suicide or accidents, so that cuts it to just over a third right there. That's still way too high, but let's get shit correct here. If law abiding citizens had their guns taken away, gun murders would probably stay at 11,000, robberies would rise, and this lady would've lost all her shit. http://www.usatoday.com/life/people...er_N.htm?csp=34

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The main question is, are gun laws in place realy the reason for violent crime,
or are both violent crime and the pro-gun legislation just symptons of a paranoid violence obsessed culture?

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Like I've been saying, they're both symptoms of our culture. You need a more holistic approach to deal with the problem; if we adopted the gun laws of, say, Britain, we'd do little more than criminalize a lot of harmless gun owners (who are the people who generally oppose strict gun laws and who are responsible for very few of those gun deaths). People would have a slightly harder time when their business is going down to Tennessee, having some redneck buy them some guns legally, and bringing them up for sale on the streets of NYC, but that's not the reason why gangs in major cities have had, for example, automatic weapons for years that until recently weren't legal anywhere in the States. The problem is not the laws; it's the mindset that lead to the laws. And it's impossible to legislate against a mindset.

And, again, until Europeans realize this, they're not going to have much that's useful to say about how to fix America in this respect.

Legal or not they're still there and readily available, and as I've said earlier, it doesn't take much for a gun to be "illegal".

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Well, I would imagine that if the average household was precluded from stocking a mini arsenal of pistols, rifles, whatever, that Junior wouldn't be tempted to shoot the school bully with his daddy's guns. If you're saying that this doesn't happen then fine, I retract my argument.

What about the unarmed burglar who walks into a shotgun pellet? That's a rather excessive demonstration of force, wouldn't you say? Sure, the bastard's taking what isn't rightfully his, but does he deserve to die for it? A good kicking, maybe, but not death.

Where there's a will there's a way, and certain gun incidents are not going to be prevented no matter what level of legislation is introduced but PST is right, there is a mindset that needs to be changed. However, hoping that this mindset is evolved into something more savoury by merely discussing the issue and appealing to the gun-owner's better nature isn't going to cause the winds of change to flow through America. If no legislative action is taken, then changing the mindset becomes optional and presented with the choice, America will remain as it is.

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Lets look at laws that make most drugs illegal within the US. It doesn't stop drugs or even slow the supply of drugs. It has driven the unregulated drug community completely underground, but does it stop? People that want drugs will have drugs. Now consider this.

Will making all guns illegal make them disappear? The people that want guns will get them just like drugs. I bought a .380 semi automatic pistol for $50 at age 19, no questions asked from a known street dealer. The law didn't stop me. I got raided my America's most wanted and they still never found my illegal pistol! If I had got caught with it... I actually didn't know shit about where it came from other than some some dude with street credit. I had no name. I bought it because I needed to actually defend myself. I never had to use it beyond target practice, but I owned it for only my own protection.

Here is the difference between drug and gun sales. You have a choice about accepting drugs but you don't have a choice about someone using a gun against you. Criminals will always get guns illegally and no law will stop them. One VT psycho fooled the legal system and now everyone thinks legal gun sales should be abolished. Most gun crimes are done with illegal guns... not legal guns. People that want to kill others will not let laws stop them and they will find a way. Guns or no guns.

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I have a small child. If a burgler comes into my house he's getting a kitchen knife right through the face, unarmed or not. If I had a gun I would use that (I don't hunt so I've never bothered to get one, maybe I should). I have no idea if I can kick this guy's head in without getting taken and compromising the safety of my household, so I'm taking absolutely zero chances on that.

You and PST are right on about the mindset, and it starts with the fact that nobody even pays attention to their kids anymore, at least in this country. We buy our kids video games and cell phones and allow those to be the major influence on them without ever interacting with them ourselves. Yeah there are other factors like chemical imbalance and traumatic experience obviously, but children need to be the center of someone's universe from the time they're born and those that aren't are about ten times more likely to end up in legal trouble and of course a few of those end up being the truly bad ones that murder, rape, assault etc.

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I'm very aware that most of these shooting events in the US happen with illegally obtained guns. Seriously though, I like to look at it like a parent-child responsibility issue. If good citizens and county and state level law enforcement cannot prevent firearms from falling into the hands -legally or illegally- of individuals such as criminals or the mentally unstable like the Columbine kids or this Korean dude, then perhaps bearing arms is a privilege that should be revoked from citizens. If you can't take care of your pet, you shouldn't be owning one.

It would really suck for a responsible gun owner to have to give up his collection, but I don't see these 30+ people massacres with guns ending any other way.

Although I would personally advocate a complete ban of personal firearm ownership and keep it strictly on a rental basis for target practice or hunting, a temporary ban and a complete confiscation(with a trade-in for $ of course) of all firearms(legal and illegal) for a few years and subsequently reopening their sale with extremely stringent background checks and more paperwork/documentation on each and every firearm sold would keep both sides of the gun ownership spectrum happy.

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Hardly. (refering to people being happy)
Also i think it should be noted that as it relates to gun control i think it should not even be mentioned the VT shooting. Its such an extreme fucking case that has almost no bearing what so ever on the "real world." Its on another level and a totally different topic of disscussion.

To Johnm: Agreeing with belphegor79 that if somebody were to come into my house they are free fucking game. Do i think its excessive? Hell no. Breaking into somebodys house seriously fucking effects people and their sense of security. Such as the VT shootings. Its now TRULY a "it could happen to me, anywhere anytime" kind of thing to alot of people. (not me, but alot of others) So do i think some scumbag who wants to break into "my piece of the pie" deserves to get shot? Yes. Btw most gun shots don't result in death either.

Also how the fuck do you KNOW that person doesn't have a weapon? How do you know ANYTHING about this person at all? Maybe hes a convicted felon, killer/rapist who is planning on not only robbing you but raping your wife, and possibly killing her.

This is my take on personal firearms. You already attempted to blow it out of discussion but i think you're wrong Johnmansley. It should be brought up for personal protection. If my country starts telling me that i should not be given the right to protect my home with deadly force, i would move from that country. There is not a person on this fucking planet (i hope, and i know i'm wrong) that would say that the police can protect you against people invading your house and doing whatever they want to, to you, your kids, or your wife.

You say "oh the rest of the civilized world..." i say so what? How does that have any bearing on the fact that i should not be allowed home defense in a world where it IS needed. its something you never fucking think about till it happens, and while you have your pants around your ankles getting fucked (literally or figuratively) i will be acting and not being in that situation if it EVER arises. (which it may or may not, probably not)

After this shooting its so fucking certain that when i turn 21 i will have not only a pistol but a license to carry it, and it will never leave my body unless it absolutely has to. Seems extreme, maybe, but like i said the one time that it needs to be there to POSSIBLY save your life, it will be there. This is what responsility of a firearm is all about. (not looking to use it, or ever dream of having to us it, but when its possibly a life or death matter, you have some sort of fighting chance)

I personally don't see how somebody thinks that all these people who own weapons and use them and take care of them like they should should suffer for the drug dealing, poor, inner city bullshit that effects almost none of the average joes. That is what makes no sense to me anyways. As i would imagine these are the largest portion of gun crime ,you hear about it every single fucking day on the news near a big city. (i know i live near DC/maryland)

Want to know whats on the news, in Northern Virginia? Usually 2 shootings a day involving poor black people generally in Baltimore, and an arson in Northern Virginia. Its not racism either, its life and thats how it is. The west coast has big problem with poor mexicans/mexican gangs while the east coast has large problems with poor blacks, and sometime gangs such as MS13.


Edit: I'm not trying to by anymeans say there shouldn't gun regulations, restrictions, or enforcements, i think that in areas of high crime (especially gun crime) there should be intense restrictions and monitoring. Also as i was looking up statistics i noticed that Gun accidents, incidents, and crimes have drastically dropped since hte 60s and has continued to drop since early 90s. These single instances really spark up thought that, oh no shit is happening everwhere, when its really not quite as it seems. Such as the hurricane season over here that resulted in Katrina. People are still attempting to pawn that off as straight global warming for their own agendas, and so will these anti-gun activists.

And dearming america would be about the most impossible thing that could ever happen haha. There are so.... so many militias across this country. (completely legal and upstanding) but there is no way in hell they would ever... EVER hand over their weapons. Especially without a serious fight.

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I'm just replying to these 2 parts.

1st one) If you're worried about your personal safety in your neighborhood then MOVE, rather than spend money on a firearm you have absolutely no idea that you will be able to use it appropriately, if at ALL in time to save your life and that of your family should you ever need to. Move to a safer neighborhood, and you will ensure you'll never have to even think of using a weapon for personal safety. It's that simple, it is the only smart decision you can really make. In Spain, over 70% of all house break-in victims already own a rifle of some sort, because they know they live in neighborhoods targeted by thief gangs. If they are at home, they'll be lucky to get away with being beaten and tied up, if they happen to know you have a firearm you're probably fucking finished. If they were so worried about their personal safety then they should be smart and move some place else, not try to be a fucking hero and point a gun at them, possibly risking their life even further. Even the police fucking advises people to not buy guns for protecting their homes, if you do get broken in and the thieves know this, they will show no mercy on you or your family.

And don't tell me you're going to take out 6 armed hoodlims in the middle of the night with your pistol, you're not fucking Rambo.

2nd one) So what are a bunch of hillbilly militias gonna do, take on the entire fucking police force with guns? Jesus, if you have so many groups of ARMED individuals in the US that are NOT WILLING TO ABIDE BY THE LAW and hand over their weapons to law enforcement if required, then I would be EXTREMELY worried about my personal safety in whatever places these militias are stationed in.

Tmfreak, don't get me wrong though. I still respect your opinion, but you should respect that of others as well. People here in most of Europe(countries with stricter firearm laws) have many valid reasons to believe gun control really does cut down substantially on crime. However I know in many places gun control would definitely not prevent assaults of any kind happening completely. But then look at a place like Germany, which has pretty lenient gun ownership laws much like the US, still doesn't have anywhere close to the proportion(keeping in mind the population ratio) of gun related deaths there are in the US. So in the US it's a mentality issue, so tell me what's the easier solution: change every single American's way of thinking, or cut down extensively on gun ownership as the populace as a whole has already demonstrated they can't prevent it from falling into the wrong hands/using them inappropriately?

Anyway I still think you're cool tmfreak and I agree with you on many other social issues, so don't take it the wrong way. I love guns myself too, I have never fired a real one but have always been fascinated by them. But having one in my house even for recreational purposes I would find completely unacceptable. Like I said, if I worried about personal safety I'd move somewhere else. And if I wanted to shoot guns for fun I'd go paintballing, much more fun and appealing than killing harmless wild animals with high powered rifles or shooting flying discs IMO.

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see that bold line there on top.......fuck that shit.......move???.......are you fucking kidding?, say if he got bought the house, say if he inherited it, say if alot of friends and family live in that community...........move???.........fuck that shit.

yeah ok, just tuck tail and run, live in the burbs man, live on an island, lets just give all the thugs and crackheads every expensive item in the home and beg their forgiveness for even trying in life, lets just lay down and admit defeat to this scary world.

fuck that shit.

see the second bolded line.........this isnt even a realistic scenerio, 6 guys breaking into a house?, sounds like a great idea, whatever they make gets split 6 ways? and 6 pairs of feet to provoke a possible pet dog or a possible someone in the house? 6 people to enter a building and leave, if noticed it noticed will be construed as suspicious, 6 people to jam up into a car as a means of escape.

how about this, since bullets travel thru walls, 6 people usually equals a larger target in a staircase or in a room, 6 ways to get snitched if one gets shot down and survives, how are them apples?






a bunch of hillbillies took this country from the british empire and upon that example we instituted a constitutional admendement in case it has to be done all over again against our own, however improbable that may be now, its still in our constitution.

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I'm only replying to this since Lo-tech definitely replied how i would have. For a second i thought he was replying to my post. I was liek when the hell did i say move away because of problems? haha I said move away because you aren't allowed to fix the problems. hah

But anyway. I'm well aware of European countries and how much it differs are far as per capita gun deaths and so on.

And unlike everybody that has posted i don't think its the mentality of the MAJORITY of americans has anything to do with this. In what i said i blame this large aspect of gun violence on exactly what is in this country and appears to not be in others. Extensive drug and poor related violent crimes. The majority of americans want to live in peace with their families, make money, and live easy/well, NOT shoot everybody up, i don't care what anybody says this is fact.

I only know one person EVER to shoot somebody (other than this tech thing) and he too was involved in drugs, in a poor town. No i'm not basing my opinion off that incident but i'm sure almost everybody i know, and they know could say the same thing. I don't know a single person that has ever been shot outside of military combat, and the average joe might be able to say similar things. The point i'm getting across is just like PST. This isn't Germany, this isn't Europe, and this isn't the UK. ALthough i can understand opinions outside of my own, i think one needs to look at it in context to where i am.

Do i live in an area EVER that has made me seriously think "hmm if i don't have a weapon i'm going to not make it."? No, never. I wouldn't live in a place like that. And neither would the majority of Americans if given the choice. What i'm saying is if there is ever.. even just one fucking instance in 80 years of living that somebody will break into your house, with whatever "vile" intentions that they have, and you aren't prepared at all then, well there isn't much i can say is good fucking luck. Cause thats all it will then amount to.

As i see it, there is only one fucking life you have to live, and if somebody is willing or possibly willing to take it away from you, you can bet my ass will not go down without resistance. Its not about being rambo, its about setting yourself up for some sort of chance to live. What else would you do? Bring a bat, knife, a phone (police) to a gun, knfe, or ??? fight? No thanks.

Edit: And yes i value you and othters opinions, it may not seem so, but if anything it allows me to continue to question, articulate, and justify why i feel and think the way that i do.

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lo-tech, plenty of robberies are done in groups ranging from 3 to 6 people. I'd like to see how any of you respond with even 2 burglars in your home. It happens all the time, I see it on the news. Loner break-ins for theft in big houses are FAR less common. Say you bought the house or inhereted it, or just don't want to leave because you're stubborn, do you really think it's worth facing a life or death situation because of that? Fuck pride man, fuck being a macho defending his territory. If you really cared about safety you'd move elsewhere, not give thieves your belongings obviously. Moving = smart. Staying acknowledging that you may be a victim of a break-in = dumbest decision you could make as a mortgage owner.

A bunch of hillbillies fought for the US' independence around 300 years ago when the US was still a colony and law enforcement was a joke, I fail to see your point. I said if required, by law obviously, as a constitutional amendment or act or whatnot.

Whatever then. Not owning a gun isn't going to prevent me from living a calm life. If I ever fear that I would be targeted for theft I'd move elsewhere, I don't care how much it would cost, I'd do everything to obtain it, living a calm life is priceless, it is never too expensive. Living in a place where I would ever even need to THINK about putting my hand on a weapon for self defense in my own home is way too costly for me.

I definitely know not all americans advocate gun ownership, I lived there for many years btw.

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haha, but in my area and you know where i live this shit goes on....

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You completely skipped over every single word i said. It has nothign to do with living in "Bad areas." You seriously need to pull your head out of your ass because this VT thing definitely for real. For real in the sense that shit SOMETIMES happens. I don't care where you live, its not about living in fear, and its not acting macho.

If you want to be blind and act like just because you live someplace no crime ever happens and you'll never ever have to ever act then you really are stupid. And i'm being honest. Where the hell do you think blacksburg, virginia is? High crime area? City area? Its in the mountains in a small tiny community that is pretty damn close nit. Where teh fuck could you POSSIBLY move outside of here and feel safer? haha. I'm serious. There is no crime, there is no safety concerns, and yet 32 people got blasted by somebody and sparked this entire debate.


And who said every american supported gun ownership? You are definitely failing to read posts by myself and others.

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dude, EVERY american city, EVERY large urban area carries the potential of a burglary,carjacking,robbery on the street. the standards you hold are not even remotely reasonable here.

you make it seem like people can just DECIDE to pick up and move on a moments notice.

i mean, do you work for a living? do you live independently? or am i taking the word of an 18 year old mamasino who never lived hand in mouth week to week, or a college kid with daddys money paying his way.

im a grown man, an adult. i pay my way,i work for a living.........i cant just leave dude, i cant just tuck tail and afford to live on the wealthy, less crime infested eastside<still dangerous, still that potential>, i cant afford a condo in the suburbs......and im sure as hell not gonna live in my parents basement because of the mean,big bad world carries the potential of a home invasion by some coward-ass thugs who, most likely at the sound of a gunshot or any resistance, would totally puss the fuck out and run for it.

i dont own a gun but i do have a louisville slugger. motherfuckers will be made to work for burglarizing my roomates and i, thats all i gotta say.......they better whoop all our asses, they better kill all of us.........thats the difference between 2 or 3 years in jail to 15-20 to life.......over what? a cheap dvd player made in china?, an old computer?, a CD collection noone will give a shit about since they can download it all free anyway.

id rather live on the assumption that people who rob and burglarize are cowards, total pussies when confronted with firm and deadly resistance, they scatter like flies.......unless they want to deal with a murder rap.......unless they are willing to do life over maybe a few hundred dollar on a home invasion gig.

ill defend my home while you live a self-induced sheltered existance in your parents basement or maybe you can afford a condo in the sprawl? we have a term for that in america........"white flight"




the second admendment outlines the right to bear arms, the main reason being to oppose tyrannical government, its a fundemental right, an inalienable right.

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i disagree, id rather do the things i want to do, live my life the way i intend to with a measure of some risk than be forced to live somewhere safe out of fear.

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tmfreak: I am reading each and every of your replies accordingly, it seems it's you who is having a hard time distinguishing fact from opinion. I never claimed to be absolutely correct with my own.

lo-tech: You know absolutely jack shit about my personal life and financial situation to go around making that kind of accusations. I live a modest life and get zero money from my mother who is on welfare disability. No one pays for my education but myself. As a matter of fact I have lived on my own for several years, and at the time being I live with my sister and help her out where I can, because the money I'm making right now is really tight. So I definitely know what entails in living in one's own home, and I never want needing to potentially use a weapon for my safety to be a part of it.

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Take a step back and consider an analogy involving corporate governance. In 2001, Enron went bust due to exceptionally poor management from its directors. There were no strict rules in place to detail a director's responsibilities - merely a code of practise - and as such Skilling and Co's actions were unregulated. They had nobody to answer to until after the company went to the wall.

What did America do? It realised that there was a problem with corporate governance and introduced, as some of you may be aware, the Sarbanes-Oxley legislation (more commonly known as "Sarbox"). What this did was impose stringent, some argue constrictive, rules and regulations on corporate governance.

Nobody liked it. Nobody. But it was a necessary evil in order to prevent similar scandals and to ensure that companies are run ethically and accurately report performance and financial position.

The point is that America took drastic action in order to ensure that this major problem was snuffed out. I feel that the equivalent action must be taken with regards to firearms. Nobody's going to like it, but it will save lives in the long run.

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yeah, i kinda went off the deep end, sorry dude

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No man, you seriously don't get the points listed. I'm not trying to say you are one thing or another, but Lo-Tech is right, either you aren't reasoning this thing out and just saying whatever comes to your mind, or you are completely oblivious to the world around you and unable to cope with the real world.

I say that similar to Lo-Tech because you pretend its just easy to move from one place to another and it (For some) is unrealistically difficult that they have no other choice but to stay where they are at.

The 2nd point that i was attempting to make was that even if you live in these places that you may think are completely safe from harm, stuff still MAY happen, and as i was thinking about it further today you can either :

A. Play the game of chance, and if your number is up and something actually DOES happen (whatever that might be) there is little you can do about it other than just take it. If your number comes up, you are lucky and you may in the end have "never" needed something to prepare you for the worst.

B. Be prepared for the worst and be able to have some sort of a fighting chance of coming out on top and surviving instead of getting your shit wrecked.

And replying to Lo-Tech, you have a good reason to believe what you believe about people entering your houseu. They aren't (generally) entering to kill and go to jail or get into a fight, they need money, they need goods and by being what they are their only intentions (generally) is to get items they can resell. (or own) Sometimes that does involve stealing guns, which does happen.

Now before somebody might reply with well if they generally just want goods or whatever why need deadly force? Well the answer to that is think of something such as the Racoon when confronted when going through trash or something like that, it is willing to do almost anything to come out on top, which means running away or attempting to stop or kill the other thing/person.
I personally can not and will not ever allow myself or my future family to be in a position in which there is little i can do except "pray for a happy ending."

JohnMansley: Although i can see the parallel you are drawing what makes that point in my opinion not so valid or worthy is the fact that one is dealing with serious fundamental issues of security of the wealth of a nation. The reason we are where we are is the large corporations and their success and failure drastically dictates our market value.

The difference is that gun control in my opinion is something that yes is a problem, but is not such a problem that the life of the country could possibly hang in the balance. It will never be such a problem (as i see it) that the government would ever need to seriously be like "this shit needs to stop."

Yes 30,000 people are killed a year through fire arms, but there are way more dangers that pose a risk to the US than firearms.

440,000 a year die in the US of smoking related causes. (according to cancer.org)
42,443 people die a year of Automobile accidents. (according to wrongdiagnosis.com)

I personly think that the amount that is killed by firearms in the US is by NO MEANS as big of a problem as people play it out to be. People hear one or two big stories and their mind is made up, or this debate is rehashed again. I'm definitely a long term thinker and pay attention to long term trends, and not the recent news that flys across teh screen and captures our short attention.

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