I am most likely going to sell my Marshall Mode 4 MF400 cab because I really don't use all the wattage it's gives me(60W Engl head into 400W 8 ohm cab), plus it doesn't fit in a mate's car and it there are only very few venues here in my island that can take half stacks blasting at those volumes.

So I'm probably going to sell my cab for 700-750€ or less and get a 2x12 but I don't know which I should get. Mesa Boogie, Orange and Rivera cabs are out of the question, way too expensive. Some of the ones I have in mind(I included the shipping and customs in the price):

1.) Vader 2x12" 240W, with Eminence speakers. 572 Euros.

2.) Engl E212VH Horizontal 2x12, 120W, Celestion V30's. 570 Euros

3.) Engl E212S Vertical Slanted, 120W, Celestion V60's. 500 Euros

The vertical slant cab(3rd choice) is 70 bucks cheaper than the horizontal one, but uses Celestion 60's not 30's.

How would the sound of each of these compare? And how would they compare to my Mode 4 cab?

I'm really leaning towards the Vader and horizontal Engl cab but I really don't know about their tone or reliability(I am sure they hold up well, but do they sound good?)

I want tight bass response and just all around CLARITY and good BALANCED tone. I don't know if any of these cabs are open back or not, this is a big issue for me, I want a closed back cab.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

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VHT 2x12? Kickass, with eminence p-50s.

get rid of the mode 4 cab :P, its built for tight bass response, BUT only from a high wattage SS. and the high wattage means that it will be quiet with a low wattage amp.
I'm not too sure about engl cabs, but i have heard that they're not as good as others with V30's, i know i'm suggesting something outside of your selection, but its hard to go wrong with a marshall cab. People also like to put their engls on mesa cabs, put thats pricy.
And everybody with a vader loves them, but again, it has high wattage so i'm not sure how it will react to your 60W fireball.
Is there a posibility that you can take your fireball and test them on the cabs? thats the only real way to find out...

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Dude, the Mode 4 cab is built for the Marshall Mode 4, a tube head, not for SS amps! What you're saying doesn't make any sense, you're telling me that if I throw a 60W tube head into a 400W cab it won't sound as loud as into a 120W cab? You're nuts, what's the point of getting a full stack then, using another full 4x12 speaker won't be as loud as a 1x12 cab.

In layman's terms my head is obviously going to drive a 400W 4x12" far louder than any basic 2x12, especially since most 2x12's are 16 ohms and not 8(more ohmage = less output). Still appreciate the effort though. Btw the Mode 4 sounds really good, it has a wide frequency response with slightly scooped mids which at first I didn't like but later after tweaking realized that it made the amp sound so fucking great and tight.

The only 2x12 Marshall cab available is a JCM series and I've heard that they DON'T have good bass tight response, they're not built for metal, so I'm not considering them.

I've heard extremely good things about Engl 4x12's, that they sound better than the average 1960 Marshall 4x12, Randall, etc. But the 2x12 vertical I am considering is said to have a warm "mid tone" with silky high end, which might not be very tight. As for the horizontal I have no clue.

VHT's are not available to me at all, and I really want to get a Mesa Boogie cab but 760€ is just way too much.

The reason why I'm not jumping for Vader's immeadeately is because I don't know if having a sterile guitar cab(some review of the 4x12 called it "sterile") is going to help my kind of tone or not. I know many bands I like use em but I'm still skeptical because I don't know exactly how different my amp will sound with a new cab, that's what scares me. I mean with my Engl I go from overdriven thrash/oldschool Dio like sounds to Morbid Angel all the way up to Hate Eternal and Suffocation you know.

I think I'll probably be very happy with a Vader anyway but I just want some of your input, fellas. If I were to get an Engl it would be sent from a German store rather than from the US so I'd be getting it earlier, plus it would match with my head.

xdislexic, I'm eagerly awaiting a reply.

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the mode four is a hybrid amp. its a 350w s.s. poweramp with a s.s./tube hybrid preamp. so in a sense, an overpriced avt. but if you like it, thats cool.

as far as the whole wattage/volume thing in cabs goes. heres a few things to keep in mind.

wattage in speakers just means that it can handle a certain amount of wattage from a head. generally more power handling means more headroom.

matching wattage on your head and cab's power rating isnt really going to give much difference in the volume.

however, some speakers are more efficient, for example... vintage 30(60w speakers)'s produce about 3db more than g12t-75's(75w speakers). so some speakers do sound louder than others. obviously the power rating doesnt really a have a big role here.

more speakers move more air.

some speakers boost certain frequencies so they seem to cut better.




they have g12t-75's which have a sorta scoopy sound. lots of lows, and some sizzle in the highs. you might like this. g12t-75's are a huge part of the success of marshall cabs. plus they're relativly cheap.




the engl cabs should be great. engl heads are built with them in mind.


thats too bad, i have a vht fatbottom 4x12 cab with the eminence p50e's. that cab is so tight and sweet sounding.


honestly, i havent had much experience with vader cabs other than being in the audience at a show... and that's not always the best way to analize something like the sound of a cab. nor the build quality. i've heard good, i've heard bad. so i'd just assume stay away and go with a safer bet like a cab i've played before.

in the end i think an engl cab with v30's is what i'd suggest out of what you listed.

i also have a framus dragon 4x12 with v30's and it's a killer cab, especially with my powerball. i understand they have 2x12's available too, i don't know what the prices would be like there for them. but they may deserve a look.

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if you're going for an engl v30 cab, dish out the extra cash for an engl v30 xxl cab. the difference in cash is totally justified. just compare them next to each other.

i dont consider an amp with 2 tubes in the preamp section and a entirely solid state power section to be a full out tube head. Oh, and only the first two channels (the ones on the left) use the tubes, the ones on the right are entirely SS. Its a high wattage hybrid head with the construction emphasis to be on tight bass response. Thus it has solid state poweramp, and its own cab, instead of being thrown ontop of one of the many other cabs that marshall makes.

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Shh... thats what xDx just said.

The V30 ENGL cab sounds good

yes, and the v30 xxl sounds better

Actually the dude from Decrepit Birth said he's gonna be using his Vader cab instead of his Engl XXL in live situations, he claims he likes it more.

And dude, did you read my first post? I'm looking for a new 2x12 not another 4x12! I couldn't find any HC reviews for either of the Engl 2x12's, just their 1x12 and 4x12's.

Framus cabs! I thought of them at firstbut I was kinda turned off because of the fact that they're much cheaper than the other 2x12's, even if the have V30's, they sounded fishy. How good is this one? : http://www.thomann.de/gb/framus_fr212_cs_cb.htm for 320€, I could almost buy 2 of them, one for home and one kept at my drummer's house. It's the highest sold of all 2x12's that Thomann sells, and can work either open or closed back(comes with adjustable flap. How do they sound?

Here's the Marshall cab, not a JCM series my bad, it's a MR1936 but it has the same speakers: http://www.thomann.de/gb/marshall_mr1936_stereo_box.htm

^This doesn't say the watts but it should handle 150W judging by the speakers right? Is that enough for cranking a Fireball into it in 8 ohms?


and THIS is the Marshall TSL JCM cab: http://www.thomann.de/gb/marshall_t...gitarrenbox.htm

It comes with one Vintage 30 and one G12 Heritage, and it only comes in 16 ohm(so it will be less louder than an 8 ohm cab?)


Right now I'm considering the Framus or Engl Horizontal. 2nd choice is the Marshall MR1936(2 G12-75's) and third is the other Marshall cab. Guess the Vader is out of the picture now.

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Oh yeah I noticed there are 2 versions of the Framus 2x12, the CS212CB(the Thomann link above) and the CS212, this one: http://www.musik-produktiv.de/shop2/shop04.asp/artnr/100002065/sid/!06082002/quelle/listen

What are the differences? It doesn't mention any, just the name and a 5 euro difference. What does the CB stand for? The CS212(http://www.musik-produktiv.de/shop2/shop04.asp/artnr/100002065/sid/!06082002/quelle/listen ) has a good review on HC, but no reviews for the CB.

Edit: Oh fuck it's the same cab my bad, the CB means "Classic Black" lol.

So it's all down to the horizontal Engl(570 Euros), Framus(300), and the Marshall MR1936(400 something).


A HC review claimed that the Framus was better than the Marshall 2x12...

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i havent compared the engl 2x12 next to the framus 2x12.... but i have the framus 4x12 and i love that cab.

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Sounds good, it'll probably be the Framus then. Fuck I might even buy 2.

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wow, the dude from decrepit birth jumps of a bridge! so should I!!!

I didn't read your first post, but 2x12's are lame. if you're a real man you play 4x12's. or two. or more.

i like 3/4 stacks, a 2x12 and a 4x12, makes the head tall enough that you dont have to bend over, and short enough that you dont have to stand on your tippytoes to read the control panel



one of the guitarists from underoath uses double 2x12s. nuff said.
but hey, start with a 2x12, and then throw a 4x12 ontop of it, and you have a sexy stack.

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You gotta be shittin' me.

More ohmage does not mean less output on a tube amp.
On tube amps, wrong ohmage = sound fuckup and possible meltdowns.

The output tubes are connected to a transformer, which is in turn connected to your cab. So if you have a 16ohm cab, you connect it to the 16ohm tap on the back of your head. If you rewire that cab to 4 ohms and connect it to the 4 ohm tap, guess what? It will be just as fucking loud either way. Connecting a 4ohm cab on the 8ohm tap will make it all sound fucked up and with less colume before the thing melts.

Most SS amps only have a "speaker out" jack, and the lower the ohmage of the cab you connect here, the more volume. Transistors are usually made to accept loads as low as 2 or 4 ohms without using a transformer inbetween.

What you gotta look at is speaker sensitivity, which is the percieved volume level with your ear one meter away when running 1W of power into the speaker. 100dB sensitivity means it will sound twice as loud as 97dB sensitivity at the same power level, and 103dB sensitivity means it'll sound four times as fucking loud as a speaker with 97dB sensitivity.
Celestion G12T-75 has 97dB of input sensitivity, V30 has 100dB, and Eminence "The Wizard" has like 103dB (Try one of those ampeg 300w tube heads into a fullstack of these, it could be handy for demolition).

Bottom end: Since you have a tube head, don't care about the ohmage. Anyway you can also rewire 16ohm 2x12's into 4ohms.

+3db does not mean twice the volume. you need +10db to get twice the volume. so i look at +3db more like 30% more volume. so a vintage 30 is not twice as loud as a g12t-75, and an eminence wizard certainly isnt 4 times as loud as a g12t-75.

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http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/speaker_cab.html

Dude, +3dB = +12% volume, but in SPL, it's like twice.

Well it just so happens that not all men have the financial ability nor necessity to own a car in which to transport 4x12 cabs, nor the ability to crank tube stack amplifiers at home past 9 o clock. When I'm a pro I'll worry about owning a full stack at home...

I've gotten more than satisfactory death metal sounds out of a friend's GB 2x12 + rack setup, so I have no qualms about 2x12's. Bigger is not necessarily better, unless someone needs a 4x12 to compensate for the size of his member.

Definately gettin the Framus, I got someone who'll pay 700€ for the Mode 4 cab which is pretty damned good, as I payed only 440€ for it new(blowout/inventory liquidation).

I also don't want to own a super complex rig because within a few years I may end up moving to the UK(when I'm done with my carreer), and the quicker I can sell shit to move the better.

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Hey one question, the Framus cab is advertized as 100W, shouldn't it be 120W as it V30's can do 60W? Could it be possible for my Engl Fireball(60W) to blow the speakers?

Could a Powerblock(150W SS) blow the speakers too? I'm asking because a local store is having a blowout sale and they're selling it for 80€, and I figure I could use it strictly for rehearsal with the 2x12(with some OD boost from a multiFX I have) so I wouldn't have to carry my Engl all the time. :P

If it can't handle it then fuck it I won't risk blowing the speakers with a crappy "amp head".

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vintage 30's are 60w, so yes 120w power handling. i'm not sure why framus marks their cabs differently. my 4x12 says 100w per side or 200w mono. instead of 120w per side or 240w mono.

you'll be fine with the fireball since it's 60w. you should also be okay with the powerblock. but no guarantees there. just don't crank it to the poweramp distortion point and you shld be fine.

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My 4x12 just sounds better then my 2x12, that's why I prefer it live, doesn't matter if I play it with my powerball, savage or SE.
I do not have to compensate for the size of my 'member'. We Dutchies are the largest people in the world, in more then one aspect. I'm black at heart. Peace bro.

ROFL yeah I read an article recently, the average Dutch duder's height is the highest in the world. I'm still taller than the average Dutchie though.

I agree, I'm sure a good 4x12's will probably sound better than a good 2x12(always depending on which brand, speakers, quality...) but I'm not a gigging/pro musician and that will probably never need a 4x12 while I live here in the Canary Islands. An additional reason for not needing a 4x12 is that most venues here can't handle a 4x12 blasting at high volumes, but I don't even expect getting a death metal band booked here anytime soon. Also since I don't have a car I can't exactly take my 4x12 anywhere for a jam.

Thx for the help.

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but how do you take your 2x12 with ya? on the back of your bike or something?

I know a 4x12 isn't the most practical solution, but how come most venues can't handle a 4x12 blasting? don't they blast out the speakers down there like everywhere else in the world?

I don't know how tall the average dutchy is. I guess I'm 6'3 or something.

Well if you saw the size of the 2 or 3 metal venues on my island you'd quickly realize you simply can't use a cranked 100W tube stack, plus they all have PA's for micing instruments. I can't fit a 4x12 in the trunk of my drummer's car, surprisingly he can fit his whole unmounted drumkit though.

I live in the Canary Islands, by the way, just to give you an idea of how far flung I live, and how many people live here(actually it has a high population density, but it's a small island(Gran Canaria) and doesn't have many gigantic venues, not to mention that only very big foreign metal bands like Kreator do big gigs.

Don't get me wrong I love 4x12's and would own a full stack if I could, but they're simply not a necessity, not to mention they're inconvenient as fuck whilst I don't own a van.

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haha, dude I've been to Gran Canaria! when I was on holiday it was swarmed with drunk (and very white/red) Englishmen, good fun. Don't remember too much of it though, those beers went quickly!

But yeah, I get your point.
It doesn't really matter if they mic the cabs or not, a 4x12 will sound different then a 2x12, even on stage. They mic our 4x12's at every gig we play but in case the soundguy fucks up we'll just blow him off the stage

Haha cool, yeah we get lots of Scandinavian and English tourists, easy to recognize because they're the ones that spend all day at the beach naked and end up like sausages then head down to the southern pubs and get drunk off their asses. There's a Swede duder here at MT that was gonna sell me his Engl Tubetoner if he came here on vacations but that ended up not happening, so I bought mein Fireball.

I understand the sound difference but as I'm not a gigging musician and won't be for quite some time I don't mind, a 2x12 will do fine enough for my "semi-pro" needs. If I end up needing more headroom, I'll either buy another 2x12 or sell it and get a Framus 4x12 or something.

Also, would a Framus 4x12 sound significantly different than running the head into 2 Framus 2x12's? I mean after all they do use the same exact building materials and speakers, they probably sound the same right? Just curious in case I do decide to go back to a half stack from my 1/4" stack.

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Yup, sounds like Gran Canaria allright, you got the German part down though 'Mein Feuerball!!!'

2 2x12's do sound different the 1 4x12, the reponse of the cabinet is just different. IMO the XXL Engl cabs sound way better then the normal V30 Engl cabs, they've got more punch and 'fatness' the only big difference is the size of the cab. The size really does matter, but that doesn't mean 2 2x12's can't get plenty loud

You know what I've been thinking about it recently... FUCK IT. I'm gonna sell my Mode 4 cab and get me a Framus 4x12" instead of a 2x12 I'll probably have some cash left over by doing this. I'm also selling my Kramer and Collins so with that cash I'll get myself a basic loud combo amp(like a tube Laney or something) and use that for jamming with the drummer, and keep my half stack at home. I'll probably end up liking the sound of the V'30's on the Framus too, I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier.

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I hate to tell you 'I told you so'

I'm going on a euro tour in march/april. bringin the marshall 1960 because it's allready battered and bruized. But it's still busting out tunes, I don't think it'll die on tour either.

Well now it only depends how much I can get for my MF400 though. Some dude at a pawn shop would only give me 400 for it. If I can sell it for 600 or more I'll grab the Framus 4x12, and if I can't then I'll figure I'll keep it and just use the cash from selling 2 of my guitars for a combo.

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