Alright, so upon looking at SERVERAL bands that I listen to, namely the ones in my sig I've noticed that the MAJORITY use a specific scale for ALL their riffs as well as the same key.

For example I'm sure most of you have heard Darkest Hour before, although their not as popular as some bands on here they're a good "example band" for which I'm wanting to further refer to.

Darkest Hour seems to inherterly make use of the C Minor scale (Ionian C Mode) to create their riffs, as far as their solos I haven't looked that far, but I'm sure they probably just use a combination of different modes in the same key within the Minor scale I'm assuming.

So MY QUESTION to you guys. As I'm still in the wee stages of music theory and have only been playing a year and like 3 months or so, again I don't understand half of which you guys usually talk about and now probably take for granted after 5 or more years of play, but I definately need to understand these scales and their different interplay of modes first before I can even attempt at improvising them.

So do these bands mainly stick to one or two keys only and just mix it up on purpose to "retain" their sound that have made them popular, or is there something else that lies within that I'm not seeing here?

I mean some people say that you shouldn't stick to just one scale or key, but from my reseach the tabs DON'T lie, and I've since been finding it a bit confusing.

I just want to know if I'm wasting my time because as of the last week I've began learning the Minor scale using the Aeolian mode (Key of A) and have actually had quite a bit of sucess.

I've included a tab of a riff and its harmony part for reference.

Attached Files

song1.gp5 (3.6 KB, 218 views)

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I was recently in that same debacle, and whats funny is you mention Darkest hour and i've been tabbing darkest hour and playing darkest hour for ever and a day. Thats actually how i developed my some sense of my style of playing and liking.

Well i had been playign for years aimlessly going along until actually breaking down the music and understanding this scale and key stuff. Taking a theory class REALLY no shit brought all of it into perspective.


Since playing darkest hour i know the C minor scale like you wouldn't understand. I would definately agree that sometimes a scale... will literally define a band. For instance.
Darkest hour: C minor (on most old stuff. now they use E minor)
Death: D minor from most of the stuf fi've seen
and Black Dahlia Murder: i've seen both C and F harmonic Minor


I agree with changing up scales now and again, but i think you can use scales to you're advantage with making a song. Different scales when played will definately help give you new ideas to making a song. Not to mention you can use the mood of that scale and sound to help mold the expression you want to get out.

Rereading what you posted. You never actually.... SAID what you're question was.. but i think i know what you're asking.

If you need anything you can ask me.. cause i just recently stepped past the point that you're currently at.

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Sorry, man for a VERY late post I should've subscribed to this, as I'm on a lot of different forums and sometimes I tend to forget the threads I make.

Anyways, thats exactly what I was trying to get across, so I'm glad you we're able to make some sense of it as I don't know half of what I'm talking about sometimes when it comes to music theory.

Right now, I guess I'm just frustrated because again I've been working with the natural minor scale because for one I really like it and its probably one of the most influenial metal scales, or so I've heard so I figured I should try and get a grasp on some of it.

Again, I've mainly been messing around with A Minor, just starting out but have also found B and E Minor to be pretty cool.

Basically, I'm just trying to find where I stand musically and see where my style fits and which modes portray the best "mood" that I'm feeling at the time.

Of course my LIMITED knowledge tends to cripple me as some of the stuff I've been doing sounds either too redundant or just doesn't have that "punch" that I'm looking for:

These are a few more VERY short riffs, I've made in GP5, again they're very short so it won't take time to review them, but seems that this is one of the main styles of riffing or something simliar that other bands I listen to produce so I'm trying get a better feel for it as well as spice it up with my own style as well.

Attached Files

	song2.gp5 (2.6 KB, 184 views)
	song3.gp5 (3.1 KB, 191 views)
	song4eminor.gp5 (1.9 KB, 171 views)

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Hmm well i think you're off to a decient start.

I would recommend making more of you're guitar pro stuff non triplets because most of those riffs you wouldn't normally play "triplets." I mean i know this is trivial to what you're asking, but you back drums behind that you're going to have a "fun time" getting it to work right. Regular quarter notes work just as well. Actually better.

Annnyyyways. Alot can be learned from just working on producing music. By that i mean going through and finishing entire songs and moving on and moving on. Basically kind of like i'm doing. Take what you liked from before and incorporate it in a new way with some newer ideas you have.

The style of "riffing" as you put it, is pretty common and definately something myself and probably every metal band on earth does. "Pedal point" as its called (i'm pretty sure) is even popular outside of the metal community.

A word of caution is to use it when needed and not to overdo it. There are plenty of other "styles" of riffs out there that can and should be used in combination with this pedal point to produce songs. I know all too well how easy it is to get stuck in my ways and produce riff after riff of this type. If you learn that lesson early it will save some frustration of being original and thinking outside of you're normal box.

I'm working on a few examples of putting my own music into guitar pro to give you an idea what i mean.

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Here is 3 examples from 3 different songs of mine. The first is just an example of varation in the rhythm and lead you can put over a rhythm guitar doing PP. The 2nd example is just another way of tying it together with a similar but different riff. And the 3rd is just an example of another commonly used riff "style" if you will.

Attached Files

example 1.gp5 (8.5 KB, 210 views)

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Tim,

That was some really great stuff man! I really liked that first melody you had going there, unique sounding, I really liked that.

You can hear that your a Darkest Hour fan, or rather a huge fan of swedish thrash/death (..but like I'm not myself...haha) but you also put your own twist on it as well which is quite evident and makes it so your not just another "bandwagoner"

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Alright so I took your advice today and studied the 3 pieces you presented as well as looked a couple other band's tabs and what not and tried putting a little something of my own together using E minor with a simple lead and rythem, trying to implement the following the best I could.

I'll admit my GP5 knowledge isn't all that much, but I think the best way to do it is, like you mentioned, is to just look at other band's tabs that I like and look at how the compose their leads and rthyems and use that as a foundation for my stuff until I gain enough knowledge to really start improvising more and what not.

Alright enough of my rambling...here's what I have so far of this piece, tell me what ya think and whats "missing" still in it.

Attached Files

song6eminor.gp5 (3.3 KB, 185 views)

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I would definately take out that 5th measure/bar, i wouldn't use it. Basically because if you learn a little about music theory you learn basically about the meter of songs. Most songs are in 4/4 not all but most. While saying that usually a "riff" if you will will last a certain sets of 4 measures/bars. So with you're song that you set up, it seems extremely awkard within seconds because of that 5th measure. (Which is also the 10th one) But i actually like what you have going here. I'll beef it up a little (with my own touch) and send it back your way. And you can see if you like it that way, or if you like you're way hey.. go with it.

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Yeah, take it and do what ya want bro, I'm definately learning some stuff here. I appreciate it!

That makes since what your saying about trying to keep the measures uniform. I did take the 2 of them out and it does sound more in line now.

But yeah, I'm glad ya like it, I guess I feel like I'm making a little progress finally.

I'll try and keep this thread open if I can think of anything else I need a few pointers on. I definately think it'll be a good thread for begining composers trying to spice up their music.

EDIT: You know after listening to it some more I can REALLY see what your saying, before it tended to "drag" on, but I guess I didn't really think anything about it because thats how I'd be doing it subconsciencely all along, so again I paid no mind to it, but now the song really has a much better progression to it.

Damn, it just seems like its always the simplist things that make the biggest differences.

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There you go. This is my take and twist on you're song. I actually started getting into it too haha

Attached Files

Example in E Minor.gp5 (9.3 KB, 194 views)

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In response to this i didn't even see you posted this. Analyze alot of REALLY good songs you like. They keep it SIMPLE. Trust me, the best thing you can do is keep it simple and take it slow. You will eventually feel what needs to be and doesn't. Like keeping time, and making sure something fits together. ALthough i will admit alot of times when i'm making my own music i don't think things fit together very well (sections of the song might not seem liek they fit together) But after forcing me to finish and record the song. And listen to it a bunch of times eventually they actually do grow on me and i realize well shit they do fit together.

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haha, thats so rad...can I still say that word? Man its too damn bad, I haven't but a year of guitar under my belt or we'd definately have to start something. This song is so catchy, well, IMO...It reminds me a bit of one of my favorite Canadian bands...Astral Gates

Here is what I finally ended the intro on, I think you'll like how I finished it up with a melodic part before I go into the fast stuff.

And my friends always used to harp on me saying I had to drop tune to play heavy, well, I think you showed that it DOESN'T have to be done...haha

Attached Files

song6eminor.gp5 (3.3 KB, 160 views)

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Actually i was just thinking the same thing. But the problem with the whole thing is reachability. Thats what drop tuning makes so easy. imo. Well its so "catchy" that i'm actually converting it to... drop C and chanign the key from E minor to C minor(which actually was retardedly easy) and i actually memorized the whole thing and changed a few things with C minor.

Now i'm changing it to G minor to see if i like it better. Which is taking alot of hand work because of the way i usually play G minor while in Drop C.

By the way you reposted the same thing. I think you have to delete the original then redo the attachment.

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Shit, I thats what I forgot. My bad. No, but the intro I got I think cuts in nicely to what you have. The melodic ending I put in my new version.

Attached Files

song6eminor3.gp5 (3.6 KB, 146 views)

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Its not bad. It seems like you would want to elongate the last notes played in the melodic part to maybe a full measure themselves. That would break up each individual part, and it would slow the overall part down. Right now it seems a bit rushed, but if you slowed down that last note and hold it out for a little length each it would sound good. But yeah that would definately be something one could use.



I think i'm actualy going to break this up a little and make this into my next song if you don't mind of course. I mostly just like some of the pace that it is, and the last part that i made. That part is what i have most fascinated by

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Definately man, I wouldn't have been able to do any of it without you helping me about anyways. Glad it helped inspire ya!

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Finishing up this whole lesson in a neat little take home package.

Composing music really isn't that hard. I definately recommend listening and truly playing and understanding a few bands styles. I'm not going to say adapt them as you're own, but understand that every band and person has their own unique style and unique view on how music should be written.

Using scales and actually more appropriate to this conversation, using KEYS to write you're music in really can change the tone of something that you want to create. I've learned over this last year that unless you are truly using some SUPER COMPLEX THEORY, theory doesn't weigh down you're thinking process as it actually extremely broadens it up and gives you extra tools for when you are stumped.

My advice is to use pedal tone/point where needed and to really explore the 3rd interval (and even the 8th or octave) with a harmony/lead guitar. (as its pretty common throughout the metal world).

And one last point is keep it simple at first. And when i mean at first is get what you're trying to get out and then come back and layer on some cool harmony and maybe a little flare here and there. But imo and i think alot of others a solid (Even a little catchy) song is sometimes the best song. Some of the best songs out there weren't the fastest "craziest" guitar solos songs, or the songs where they tried some insane meter that just makes zero sense or hardly lacks any real rhythm, its those that appeal the fundamental things that humans enjoy.

A good mix of consonant and SOME dissonant harmony as well good well established well felt beat.


I'll post my G minor version in Drop C that i'll more than likely will be using on my next song. So yeah thanks alot for the inspiration, definately comes in weird places and weird times.


By the way i noticed you live in va. I looked on yahoo maps, and you're way out there in BFE / Next to WVA. hah About 2 hours from where i live. Also i noticed you put my band/side project on you're little list of bands. Sweeeeet.

Attached Files

Example in G Minor.gp5 (13.5 KB, 180 views)

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Haha, yeah I do live way out here. Funny thing is that its actually a very richy little town, not that I'm any part of that. Sometimes it can really get annoying though. Ritsy little bitches here.

Anyways, cool stuff man, and your definately right about finding inspiration in odd places sometimes.

I like your version in Drop C, but for some reason I like the tone better in Standard tuning, perhaps its just the Key its in though, but then again I'm partial to standard tuning because I love a lot of power metal bands as well if you haven't already noticed. You said something about it being easier to play in songs in Drop C than standard though? I've heard that as well, I guess I'll just have to practice harder if I want to play it in standard then I guess.

Yeah, I'll definately keep in touch with ya though man, I think I'm gonna actually take your advice and slowly start my own project, "Opal Silence" if you haven't already noticed from the file.

Again thanks for all the tips and helping me get off to the right track, you don't know how much time this will save me....Actually, nevermind...I'm sure you do.

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I've got few questions about this thread. I haven't recieved any musical education from any teacher at all, most what i know i found in net or learned from books, so don't yell at me if i don't know basic things . Ok, so:

I read here about scales. You said, that many bands mostly uses one certain scale in their compositions. I did study your examples, and every one of them was in one scale i think (or i wasn't paying enough attention ). So my question is: would it be very bad and wrong if in one song would be used two different scales?

And the second thing is - i was watching and listening to some of Death songs (fe. Lack of comprehension), and i spotted, that not every sound fits into certain scale (D minor in this case). How you can explain that? I want to know how does it look from musical point of view, and what is rule of composing like that (of course if there is any).

So, how can you explain that guys, huh?

just because say a song is written in a certain key/scale, doesent mean the band will stick with those notes, it sounds good at times to go out of key

^ yeah that's called a "passing note" ..they usually sound best if you resolve them, that is move from the passing note back into a scale note with a hammer/pull or a slide.

it is perfectly acceptable to change scales or modes,within a key ( this is called modal modulation).for example,the E minor scale also contains the F# diminished scale,the G major scale, and so on. in fact the E minor is the 6th degree of the G major ionian scale as well.so as you can see there is a multitude of possibilites that stem from any one of the seven modes of the G ionian.it is also a fairly commonly used device to switch keys in the course of a song, it can lend a great tension and release feel to the climax of a song. i'd recommend some theory lessons. theory can be a HUGE asset in your songwriting and will make you much better on the whole as a musician.