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Old 2006-04-19, 02:48
JacksonGuitars07
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Jazz...

What Jazz artists/bands would play a style in similar to say, the jazzy interludes and leads that a band such as Sleep Terror plays? I am looking for that style jazz as opposed to this laid back Kenny G type stuff in my household. Any reccomendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Also, what are some good sites to learn about jazz theory/extended chords in scale/jazz progressions/scales/soloing?
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Old 2006-04-19, 04:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke on the smnnews forums
Check out Naked City's 'Black Box' or their first album (s/t). Bill Frissel's playing really influenced me jazz-wise. Also Mr. Bungle's 'Disco Volante', or Meshuggah's Contradictions Collapse (great metal/fusion album and ahead of its time). Keep in mind these are more free-form jazz influenced records and bands, not typical radio or modern jazz which is why I dig on it so much.


pretty much answers your question Sleep Terror wise - but I personally haven't heard them.

But it's Luke!

Edit: ... And buy a book or some shit, its much easier than going through all these sites... You do know it's basically improvisation right? So just play some random chords clean and do a random solo over the top.


No, It's not that easy.

Last edited by problematic : 2006-04-19 at 04:38.
 
Old 2006-04-19, 10:25
JacksonGuitars07
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I know basic extended chords and scales, but I want to really be able to play and know what the hell I am doing. I know how to play 6th, min6th, MajMin 7, Min7 etc. chords but knowing when to use each chord and which progressions to use is a different story.
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Old 2006-04-19, 19:29
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Contradictions Collapse has some of the greatest jazz content EVER! And mixed with Megadeth-style thrash! Thorendal is a jazz god. I recently tabbed a solo of his. It's in the Incomplete Tabs forum. THAT'S godly freeform!

The Red Chord are doing some great jazz stuff, but that ego and unfunny teenage stoner arrogant humour shows through sometimes...
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Old 2006-07-10, 16:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonGuitars07
Any reccomendations would be greatly appreciated.


Roll yourself a fatty and go to a jazz club
 
Old 2006-07-13, 02:46
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80% of jazz songs have a ii - V - I progression in them. if youre serious about learning some jazz, buy a fake book. although id recommend buying the 'real book', anyone will do. fake books are just big books with lots of standards in them - your local music shop should have them. take some simple songs and comp to them. understand and comp to songs first before trying to solo over them or it is extremely easy get lost. feel free to leave me a message as i have some experiance playing live jazz and may be able to help you out.
 
Old 2006-07-13, 14:11
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as you start working with the jazz songs, progressively more into more experimentally written pieces. it is not only the melodic aspect of music theory which is important for jazz, it is the rhythmic aspect as well. challenge yourself with complex changes and understand how these changes work.
 
Old 2006-07-16, 17:44
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learn all normal scales in modes and learn exotic scales too. learn pitch acess theory and practice changing modualy over a drone note. practice improvising like this too. and notice the differnt shapes and colors you create. i like practicin with a tampura, brings out extra flava in some scales well just experiment too
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ibut i wouldnt get any help at a slipknot board, theyre struggling with palm muting!
 
Old 2006-07-17, 04:06
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Another common Jazz chord progression is the I7- vi7- ii7- V7- IV7. . . . it really sounds good too. . .. but that is just a personal opinion on Generic ass Jazz.
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Old 2006-09-02, 08:00
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Yup, jazz is the best, there are so many jazz bands around the globe.!
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Old 2006-09-03, 18:39
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Old 2006-09-03, 19:30
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Old 2006-09-03, 19:33
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haha jazz?

i'd say necrophagist can be pretty jazzy at times
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Old 2006-09-03, 19:35
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same for Cryptopsy
 
Old 2006-09-03, 19:43
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yes, but when I want jazz I reach for weather report or bela fleck
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Old 2006-09-04, 00:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsicsix
yes, but when I want jazz I reach for weather report

+1
i dunno i kinda would count them as funk. but their still kickass
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ibut i wouldnt get any help at a slipknot board, theyre struggling with palm muting!
 
Old 2006-09-04, 20:27
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www.iantoms.ca


my jazz teachers website
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Quote:
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so i guess its kinda nice for leads but i thought it sucked ass for soloing
 
Old 2006-09-04, 22:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YJM04
+1
i dunno i kinda would count them as funk. but their still kickass

I always though jazz and funk kinda went hand-in-hand
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Old 2006-09-04, 23:17
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Nah theres a big difference

Learn a funk song and learn a jazz song youll notice the differnce
 
Old 2006-09-05, 00:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsicsix
name 3



I'm not going to say ythis band is "jazz" But between the buried and me.. they have some SERIOUS jazz / blues influence in their music. Its obvious their guitarists especially their lead guitarist is heavily into jazz. Some of his clean solos are rediculous.Not so much crazy (they can be at times..) but the rhythm and style is.. pretty freaking impressive.
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Old 2006-09-05, 01:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsicsix
I always though jazz and funk kinda went hand-in-hand

u can tell by the bass. funk bass is usually electric and with the drums(kick). and jazz bass is usually with the hat and a walkin bass line. and most cases is accoustic depending on what sub genre of jazz.
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ibut i wouldnt get any help at a slipknot board, theyre struggling with palm muting!
 
Old 2006-09-07, 15:59
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What do u think of the Beatles!?
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Old 2006-09-07, 17:34
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Old 2006-09-08, 07:31
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Old 2006-09-09, 19:55
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from my experience slugging it out with jazz drummers, basically thier community balks at anyone referencing their music or attributing what they do to themselves, especially metal bands,fusion drummers,basically everyone outside of the latin crowd. they seriously go ape-shit about this. from a drummers point of view, there is no such thing as a jazzy metal drummer.

metal bands utilizing jazz scales is essentially fusion, not jazz. this was thier biggest point and i tend to agree in the context that most jazz is improvisation based. a metal band utilizes the theory of jazz,the scales and whatnot, but not the practice,rids itself from the context from which the theory is regularly applied.


btw,funk is rock music that swings-ie a triplet feel, its blues based. the two are total different world tho.
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Old 2006-09-21, 22:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by low-tech
this was thier biggest point and i tend to agree in the context that most jazz is improvisation based.

Hmmm...I think that would then make my band a jazz/grind band. Because we don't write songs when we play live, it's unplanned, always. We just kinda know how to play with each other so we understand what each of us is going to do and when.
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Old 2006-09-22, 14:32
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Well, I'm having a hard time writing any Jazz whatsoever.

So, ill buy a book.

In the meantime, any tips?
 
Old 2006-09-23, 00:49
JacksonGuitars07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by problematic
Well, I'm having a hard time writing any Jazz whatsoever.

So, ill buy a book.

In the meantime, any tips?


Chords Galore helps with learning extended voicings on the guitar and such, its a good start to learning jazz.
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Old 2006-09-23, 11:25
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Well, I bought two books; "Introducing Jazz for the Rock Guitarist" and "Jazz Guitar supplement".

Should go well.
 
Old 2006-09-23, 22:46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cunty Shunt
Hmmm...I think that would then make my band a jazz/grind band. Because we don't write songs when we play live, it's unplanned, always. We just kinda know how to play with each other so we understand what each of us is going to do and when.



as far as im concerned, call it whatever you want. the thing about jazz is the "swing" feel. improvisation can be in any genre, of course

i should probably get the fuck out of the guitar theory threads
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Old 2006-09-25, 11:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by problematic
Well, I'm having a hard time writing any Jazz whatsoever.

So, ill buy a book.

In the meantime, any tips?
Yeah, don't buy a book!

Jazz knowledge comes from studying the music itself. That means listening to recordings from throughout the history of jazz, and absorbing the stylistic characteristics - the WAY people play, not just what they play.
All great jazz musicians know the history thoroughly - you might be surprised to know how much modern jazz players respect the stars of the distant past. (eg Pat Metheny is a Louis Armstrong fan.)
You should also go to jazz gigs, and study what the musicians do. I don't mean work out what scales they're using - - I mean look at the way they interact. Listen for ideas that get thrown back and forth around the band, between rhythm section and front line, etc.

Think of "jazz" as a verb, not a noun. It's not a form of music - it's a way of playing music (any music); above all, it's an attitude to music. It treats any piece of music as a piece of raw material: "hmm, what kind of fun can we have with this?"
This attitude does exist in rock music, but it's rare. Most rock musicians like to follow rules - they want to "get things right", play it the same each time, make it perfect. The "jazziest" rock musician I know of was Jimi Hendrix. Bob Dylan (perhaps strangely) is another. These are/were people who regard the performance as the place where real music happens, not the recording. A recording is only one example of how a piece of music might be played. To repeat that version live, note for note, is to miss the whole point. A recording is dead; it's gone. Real music is what happens there in front of you, on a stage.
Jazz is about improvisation and self-expression - but always within a given musical framework. So although they do "make it up as they go along", they know where they are and where they're headed. They are speaking an intelligible language, not babbling.

If you must buy a book (and books ARE useful! I was only kidding) buy a "Real Book" - a collection of transcriptions of performances of jazz standards, with notation and chords. (Yep, sorry, you need to read notation.)
Buy a playalong book/CD, such as the Jamey Aebersold series. (But yep, you still need to read notation.)

If you decide, actually, you don't really like jazz that much - that's fine. Jazz does require the kind of total commitment that few other types of music do. But you can pick up some concepts from it, and apply those to other music (like, uh, metal) - you could get some highly original sounding music from doing this. But a certain amount of intellectual rigour is involved .
<< not a jazz musician...
 
Old 2006-09-25, 13:28
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Thanks for your great response dude, and I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Well, I bought the two books, and its not as generic as you made it out to be. One has a cd, the other doesn't. So far its just been hardcore theory which I need to catch up on anyway. And they tell you that you have to listen to the music to be able to fully play it properly, which I understand, so they convieniently give me shitloads of 'must have' albums.

I see, the learning curve is fucking steep.

Well, I'm prepared to take it on. The books cover so much material, I dont think i'll finish them in the next two years. Thankfully both books have both notation and tab, even though I can read notation fairly well, I just really can't be fucked.

fucking time to practice scales
 
Old 2006-10-07, 15:29
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Reviving the thread a tad...

For those of you who play Jazz / a similar musical genre on guitar, do you prefer:

a) picking strings normally?
b) fingerstyle method?
c) hybrid method (thumb pick)?

Or maybe a combination, depends on what?...

Interested to know
 
Old 2006-10-10, 15:17
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Dammit I need to find a forum for Jazz. Sputnik and this is dead for Jazz .

Fuckin reply someone!
 
Old 2006-10-10, 18:40
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I've been trying to verse myself with jazz. I find myself doing alot of hybrid picking and normal picking. I just found out about the ii-V-I jazz progression. I also love the maj7/min7/dom7 chords used in jazz and that progression. Check out wholenote.com for good jazz examples ranging from beginner to expert. I love how jazz progressions and common jazz chords can really transform the 7 modes.
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Old 2006-10-10, 19:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
I just found out about the ii-V-I jazz progression.

What does the"ii-V-I" mean? I know very little theory so if this is basic stuff thats why i dont know it.
 
Old 2006-10-10, 23:14
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ii-V-I is a chord progression with the 2nd, 5th, then first chord of whatever key youre in. Because the 2 is lower case its a minor chord. the V is dominant and the I is major. if you were in C major youd play Dm7-G7-Cmaj7
 
Old 2006-10-11, 14:11
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Thats still pretty confusing and i dont entirely understand what you are saying due to my lack of music theory knowledge, but thanks for the explanation.
 
Old 2006-10-11, 14:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornsOfHeaven200
Thats still pretty confusing and i dont entirely understand what you are saying due to my lack of music theory knowledge, but thanks for the explanation.


It's actually quite simple. Simplistically, the roman numerals are just representations for specific chords depending on what key you are in. Just check out the thread on modes, that should help clarify.
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Last edited by davie_gravy : 2006-10-11 at 14:20.
 
Old 2006-10-13, 10:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThornsOfHeaven200
Thats still pretty confusing and i dont entirely understand what you are saying due to my lack of music theory knowledge, but thanks for the explanation.

Chords in key of C major:

I = C (Cmaj7)
ii = Dm (Dm7)
iii = Em (Em7)
IV = F (Fmaj7)
V = G (G7)
vi = Am (Am7)
vii = Bdim (Bm7b5)

In key of E, for comparison:

I = E (Emaj7)
ii = F#m (F#m7)
iii = G#m (G#m7)
IV = A (Amaj7)
V = B (B7)
vi = C#m (C#m7)
vii = D#dim (D#m7b5)

The roman numerals are useful for talking about how chords relate to one another in a key, without needing to talk about specific chords (because the relationships are the same in any key).
 
Old 2006-10-14, 05:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacksonGuitars07
What Jazz artists/bands would play a style in similar to say, the jazzy interludes and leads that a band such as Sleep Terror plays? I am looking for that style jazz as opposed to this laid back Kenny G type stuff in my household. Any reccomendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Also, what are some good sites to learn about jazz theory/extended chords in scale/jazz progressions/scales/soloing?


Never listened to sleep terror, but you should check out the alex skolnick trio. For those of you who are unaware (Shame!) alex skolnick is the lead guitarist of Testament. Probably one of the greatest 80's shredders, right up there with marty friedman. But yeah, he also plays jazz. I think he does a cover of electric eye.
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Old 2006-10-18, 02:55
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i love the jazz break in 43% burnt, destro's secret and weekend sex change by the dillinger escape plan

and the little jazz break in binary part 2 by ion dissonisance

i love jazz like this but i have no idea how to play stuff like it

and protos cosmos by allan holdsworths lead style
 
Old 2006-10-24, 09:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THATDUDE7
i love the jazz break in 43% burnt, destro's secret and weekend sex change by the dillinger escape plan

and the little jazz break in binary part 2 by ion dissonisance

i love jazz like this but i have no idea how to play stuff like it

and protos cosmos by allan holdsworths lead style


You should go and learn some Cynic clean parts to help you out there. I just fuinished recording my first song, and all the clean stuff and textures that Cynic use had a great influence on me. Although my other major influence is stuff like Gorguts, so you can imagine the direction that it all got bent in.

I also think it would be good learning for metal players because Cynic managed to fuse jazz seamlessly with metal. It doesn't sound like you are listening to a metal band with jazz breaks or something. It's because they actually composed songs instead instead of just pretentiously went genre-hopping. Another important lesson to composers out there.
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Old 2006-12-26, 04:19
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lol that didnt help if anyone can tell me of some artists that play jazz like this can you let me know?
 
Old 2006-12-26, 08:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by THATDUDE7
lol that didnt help if anyone can tell me of some artists that play jazz like this can you let me know?

Maybe you'll like something like THIS?

I know of more if you want, it's hard to find 'non-happy' sounding instrumental jazz though.
 
Old 2006-12-27, 16:00
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I hadn't heard of Sleep Terror, but having checked out a YouTube video, I suggest you look up Frank Zappa, who was probably the founding father of that sort of thing in 60s (rock guitar sounds with jazz thinking).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MoExM8H-c9k

More contemporary figures (all more on the jazz side than the metal side, but still with an edge) worth checking out are:

John Zorn (sax player)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ajS3cbkoZX0

John Scofield - here's an early jazz-funk piece:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KfHsvZj8Wx0

Billy Jenkins - my personal hero, has been playing avant garde and free jazz guitar with a punk edge for over 30 years.
He's currently on a tongue-in-cheek blues kick:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ogyx1dEpxp4
...and here's the first part of a documentary on him:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7vQLuzjkFBo
Wait till around 1.46 into the video for a typical example of his guitar "style"....
 
Old 2006-12-28, 01:08
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Those were some great pieces, but I dislike Billy Jenkins' music. Just not my thing. John Scofield and the especially that drummer Dennis Chambers fucking ripped it up!

Thanks for sharing dude.

Here's more shit I like:

Mahavishnu Orchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J88Ep3_vKIk

This is old school - Django Reinhardt ... A gypsy with two fingers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5FZVlN44CE

Fusion... Chick Corea - Spain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7lGi_BgHlU
 
Old 2006-12-28, 14:19
JonR
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Jenkins is an acquired taste, true enough. I guess I like his sense of humour more than his music.

I'm a big Django fan too, but I doubt this is the sort of thing the OP is looking for. You can't get much further apart than Sleep Terror and the Hot Club of France!
 
Old 2006-12-29, 00:42
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problematic
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Haha very true.. I still felt like posting it though.

Anyhow he's not replying, he probably hasn't seen our replies anyhow .
 
Old 2007-01-04, 08:48
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Sic_Fitzravia
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Django Reinhardt owns! my favourite old skool jazz player.His lead style is incredible. cant imagine how he can come up with such licks. it would be nice to play like him!

Cynic on the other hand does sound like genre-hopping to me.it does have jazz breaks between metal riffs for example the song textures and also veil of maya.Since im a noob myself you guys can correct me anytime. i dont really get the point of fusing jazz with metal if there is such term as genre-hopping. Thanks
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Old 2007-01-04, 12:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sic_Fitzravia
Django Reinhardt owns! my favourite old skool jazz player.His lead style is incredible. cant imagine how he can come up with such licks. it would be nice to play like him!

Cynic on the other hand does sound like genre-hopping to me.it does have jazz breaks between metal riffs for example the song textures and also veil of maya.Since im a noob myself you guys can correct me anytime. i dont really get the point of fusing jazz with metal if there is such term as genre-hopping. Thanks


It can seem like they are just skipping between metal and jazz, but Masvidal and co. do not really write by genre and it does to me sound blended. The melodies even it out.

You could say the same about my music, but I've written, I've not 'hopped genres'. I barely listen to any jazz. If you want to listen, follow the garageband link in my signature.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!
 
Old 2007-01-04, 16:44
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Sic_Fitzravia
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Heard your song called Blades of contingency from the link. its a bit sudden to me at 0.20 where you change the pace but the whispering vocals are quite cool and the riff where you bring up the pace back works just great.At 2.30 your solo kinda remind me of Ron jarzombek's Spastic ink style.IMO the bass is kinda lack during your break. Good job though cause i myself not been able to write that kinda stuff yet. Mostly my compositions are jazz/folk but still am very noob.Hopefully one day i can fuse them with metal.
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Old 2007-01-05, 13:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sic_Fitzravia
Heard your song called Blades of contingency from the link. its a bit sudden to me at 0.20 where you change the pace but the whispering vocals are quite cool and the riff where you bring up the pace back works just great.At 2.30 your solo kinda remind me of Ron jarzombek's Spastic ink style.IMO the bass is kinda lack during your break. Good job though cause i myself not been able to write that kinda stuff yet. Mostly my compositions are jazz/folk but still am very noob.Hopefully one day i can fuse them with metal.


Thanks. But you see what I mean though. To do jazz or fusion, fusion especially, you have to stop thinking jazz or fusion.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!
 
Old 2007-01-05, 15:23
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Adrian_15
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Try to listen to Greg Howe
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What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
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Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for them from prayers or bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs,-
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.
 
Old 2007-01-07, 20:28
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That won't help. I listened to plenty of jazz to try and get the feel for it, but I still coudn't write it for shit. I found that theoretically taking it apart is a good way.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!

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