This is fucking scary, what I've discovered.
On intervals, and on dyad chords as well, I suppose.

Take the fifths.
flattened 5th - 6 semitones
perfect 5th - 7 semitones
perfect 4th - 5 semitones

Take these beings.
Any power of the Devil is named with 6.
Any power of God is named with 7.
Any power of Man is named with 5.

See a relation?

Flattened fifth chords or intervals are HORRIBLE sounding. Probably the hardest to stomach musically, unless you're Erik Rutan.
The Devil is quite, em, horrible.
Perfect fifth chords, more commonly known as the powerchord, or intervals are generally quite nice sounding to most people. Or strong sounding, in perhaps better words.
God is quite nice, really.
The perfect fourth is an ambiguous chord, or interval. It is very neutral sounding and can be manipulated for anything. It doesn't sound out of place in atonal horror and fits snugly in melodic bits as well.
So can be said of Man, more or less.

The fifths seem to be elements of influence on root notes, as do seem God and the Devil.

Zen also stands through this. There are no opposites. The two intervals/beings are of the same species and simply with different 'interests', and tell me how 6 and 7 are 'anti' to eachother.
Thus would it seem that God and the Devil are simply not the ultimate, infinite powers they are believed to be and simply other entities trapped within the same frame as us humans, in some ways than others. They are simply two creatures at war with us in the warzone...

Quite intriguing, would one not agree?

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...that's deep!

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In inversion form God would relate to man, and the devil would relate to evil man(augmented fourth). Interesting idea.

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You know I thought this would be a bs thread til I saw you're the one that posted it. Never a calm moment with you around. Very interesting comparison. How did you think of that?

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A little of the same idea which occured. Non-complex interval chords and such are formed mainly from the 1-3-5-7, not exactly half steps, but the 3rd could represent the trinity, the 5th being of course man, and the 7th relating to god. Okay pure bullshit straight pulled straight from the ass. Close enough view of anything and you may find likenesses though.

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Pure coincidence.

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Pretty cool shit regardless of one's personal beliefs in my opinion. Off topic, why exactly is 666 the number of the devil? I read the bible awhile ago and have wondered this ever since. Can somebody clear this up for me? Thanks

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apparently

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I've since forgotten. I think it was when I was going over the overall effect of each degree on a root note. Suddenly, as it would have gone, as I came onto the fifths, I saw it. 6 and 7. The numerical appellations of the Biblical powers.

I've explained it to a devout Christian, my RMPS teacher (RMPS - Religious, Momral And Philosophical Studies), and she agreed.

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In meditation, I have come to realise that 6 is the shape of the world, and I believe that the world is the domain of Satan. It comes from long thought on Buddhism and a boyhood obsession with quantum theory. I have come to believe that even Buddhists are steered in their thoughts by the Devil, in one way or another.

In Buddhism, it is said that all things are related and that no thing can be isolated on its own. Anatta, is called this concept.
And LBXXX, remember Mirror Nihilism?

I need to meditate more, my thoughts are becoming completed. I'll do it while running a bath tonight. Thanx for asking for answers, guys.

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Now I may be incorrect but 666 isn't the number for the Devil but in essence the number of the antichrist also called in Revelation "The Beast". To me its just a number and that's pretty much what it should mean to Christianity. I think 666 has something to do with his name like adding up his name in Roman Numerals or something, even though the numbering system back then was based on a mixture between greek and hewbrew called septuagint(sp?). This is my understanding of it. I could be wrong though. INtersting ideas Unanything.

As for the number 666, it might be an interesting piece of trivia for you all that 6 is pronounced "sex" in Swedish, and yes, it also means the same as in English.
Taking into account the church's traditional attitude in this matter, maybe we have in this country, by dint of complete coincidence, incorporated the answer into our math.

For the sake of argument:
Consider the possiblity that people long ago simply attributed these numbers to the different entities, because it fitted with their sub concsious perception of what is harmonious and what is not? After all, it would be fairly arrogant of us to assume that what we find good-sounding is music in the assorted air-pressure-difference perception organs/instruments of all intelligent creatures in this universe, yesno?

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Human forms of thought rarely predate empirical sensations - and the musical system referenced to here, just like the numerical associations of Medieval Catholicism, is certainly manmade. You can see the recurrences of certain numbers and images and so on throughout various traditions in human history, and while it's very fun to impute some kind of inherent mystical power to them, it's very likely that the answer is simpler: humans are humans and certain numbers, figures, etc are significant to them for very human reasons. I'll direct everybody to the passage in Foucault's Pendulum in which the narrator's mate deflates the religious conspiracies he's conjured up through this kind of pattern-noticing using nothing but their two bodies.

This is the second or third time I've seen Unanything call the world the Devil's. Have you read the Gnostics?

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Well, when it gets right down to it PST, wasn't that what I said? The numbers are mysterious because we like them, and mysterious things get connected with the numbers, so that, when our tiny concious mind get around to think about it, we suddenly have a whole lot of mysterious things connected to some damn mysterious numbers.

Tada.

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I've heard of their ways. Nothing more though.
Buddhists developed the idea on their own that all life is suffering, they needed no Catholic patterns.
We reflect our Universe. That's why these things all link. We would be unanything if we could not be explained or related. The Universe is programmed into us, that's why life evolved at all. In fact, you can't differentiate us from the universe itself. The flesh is simply matter following equations too. The flesh evolves as one, with a singular cause and focus, but it is so full of contradiction and paradox.
A woman gives birth and feels pain. A crude but true example.

Anyway, dim5 has always sounded horrible to humans, so, how did the Church fabricate that?

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The Antichrist represents the Unholy Trinity, which is, of course, made up of three Satanic powers, three of the Fallen Angels (Belial, Lucifer and Leviathan). Each has the number 6, so 666 is simply shunting the numbers together. 666 is also supposed to be the sum of the letters of the Antichrist's human appellation, in some Greek or Hebrew formula. Emperor Nero's name in an old, old form of ancient Greek (Nero Kaisar) comes out at 666. Some scholars have had rela wonders about that.

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One of Zen's koans also can be explained in music.

When the path of Zen is first trodden upon,
Mountains are mountains, water is water,
When the path of Zen is being walked upon,
Mountains are no longer mountains, water is no longer water,
When the path of Zen is completed,
Mountains are again mountains, water is once more water,

goes the koan.
Look at one octave.
When you begin, you are a 1st note, or a root note. Sounds nonsensical, but follow, you will understand.
On the path, you transcend through the 2nds, the 5ths, whatever they relate to.
Then upon Enlightenment, you reach the octave, the same note as from where you began.
The koan has many interpretations, mostly perceptive ones, but, does one not agree?

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You're working under the assumption that modern notation, tuning, tonality etc are objectively a part of music. They aren't. I'm not equipped to give you a history, unfortunately, but all the information's out there. Research the career and significance of Andreas Werckmeister. But I'm not claiming the number correspondences are the work of Catholics. Just that you're giving too much importance to correspondences that are bound to exist in systems created by people, like Catholicism, Buddhism, and musical notation.

Gnostics aren't Catholics. It's a catch-all a name given to various heretical sects who held that the world was created by and belongs to Satan.

You're seriously stretching with that koan. I expect pot to show up with a smiley.

Nothing about tuning. I go for the sound, as you're meant to do in music theory, not shape.
I know the Gnostics aren't Catholics.
What is a part of music then?
What modern notation?
PST, this is from the mind and only the mind.
I will look up Werckmeister though.

Pot?

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powersofterror alias pot.

That was pretty cool to parellel the octave with that Zen idea. I liked that.

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Tuning dictates sound much more than you're allowing, and until Werckmeister a lot of the available sounds weren't. I like the assumption that tuning and notation are stable, though.

What's a part of music, objectively speaking? All the notes and none of the notation. A lot of things that are precluded by the octave system and general music theory. All sorts of things, but the numbers we've assigned to intervals that exist in a form dictated by a system we've invented? No.

7 is Christian for Complete or perfect. Forgive your brother 77 times, created the world in 7 days. . . blah blah blah *cough* bullshit *cough*. So therefore 6 would be incomplete or imperfect, hence 666 would be imperfection to the 3rd degree(another biblical biggy number wise. . . )

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....
This is off topic, but I looked up sect and cult, I'm sure you can tell me the difference in a PM. From what I gather, a sect is the people/group, and the cult is the belief the sect belives? oh, I don't really know, so PM me about it to keep this out of the thread.

On topic......
I don't really understand the last sentence of this post I'm quoting......are you asking or telling? Are yoy saying that:
Who gives a shit about the ## that were given to each interval?

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hahaha.......

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About dimished fifth. It might look funny but there are relations to the Devil actually. In medieval ages this interval was called "Devil's Tritone" because of it's nasty and dissonant sound, but not because it contains 6 semitones I suppose. However this is interesting coincidence...

Well, since our modern musical systemwas written down by the church at that time, it is bound to have at least some theistic references in it.

Correct me if i'm wrong tough, i'm not exactly the expert

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Some of theory goes back to Greek and Roman times as well. When the Greeks in their observing ways thought that there was a kind of system to music. We have the modes of natural minor all named after places in Greece, or around. And they are ascribed with the basic A B C D E F G.

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That theory is very different than modern theory, though similar in theory. Since you don't mention the thing that makes it different, I'm assuming you didn't really investigate that hard. Which is totally cool. If you want to see to come off as enlightened because you can recognize patterns that correspond between various manmade organizing systems, feel free. L,B'XXX seems pleased as punch with you.

Look into tuning systems, starting with 'pure-toned' instruments, down through 'well-tempered' instruments, and to modern day experiments by avant-garde composers. Realize that notation is completely arbitrary, that we use the best system but certainly not the only or definitive one, and that patterns are bound to exist in things people made. That's the way our minds work. It's not a big deal unless you're unaware of the fact that humans seek out order in all things. They impose structure. And, yes, the Greeks' big contribution to the world is that very kind of imposed structure, which they used to organize and take credit for things inherited from the Persians, so no surprise that they 'deduced' music theory and have their names all over it.

This post will remain my solitary contribution to the Music Theory forum.



No.

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I've stayed out of this thread for a while to see how it progressed but I agree with PST. Speaking as a maths grad, looking for patterns in a man-made system (in this case numbers applied to intervals in music) and applying it to some credo of beliefs is akin to numerology.

If one looks hard enough at anything, one will find their very own enigma code to life - it's just a case of what one chooses to look at. Some people could come to the conclusion that every other 6,989th letter in the Bible spells "death to nu-metal0rz", but apply this to a translated Bible from Aramaic into English and it becomes "Jesus loves you, but everybody else thinks you're a cunt".

It's completely subjective and dependent on patterns contained within artificial systems created by man. This leads nicely to the crux of my point: only man could find God in something that man alone created.

It's been interesting, but I find that this topic has exhausted itself and I can only see the defending and re-defending of each other's viewpoints occurring if this thread were to stay open.

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