I recently had to spend 2 weeks with a mobile window tinter that was also Christian. It was prety good pay but I had to hear him rave on about shit. I couldn't really beat him beccause I'm not a scientist and he's like a fully qualified precher and brought up shit I had no answer for. How can I beat gay Christians in the argument, can anyone find me an essay or something?

Do some reading

these books are really good for bossing christians:
The pagan christ
Angels and demons
Da vinci code

the last two are really easy and exciting reads, im sure you've heard of them before

the pagan christ is pretty dry, but it has awesome facts,but i don't encourage argueing with christians, its not gonna get you anywhere, and it's pretty immature

EDIT:btw those books i mentioned dont really compare evolution and religion

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I really wanted to get my 2 cents in this one. You guys aren't myopic about metal so quit being that way with Christians!!! We aren't all alike anymore than all of you like Linkin Park. I know sometimes people that are so into their thing will drive you nuts, but you could take the approach to maybe learn a little from what he says and ask a few questions. Or politely tell him you'd rather talk about something else and that it's too personal a thing and you have your own beliefs that you're content with. That's what I tell the JW's that stop occasionally. I studied with them for awhile just to find out what they were all about. I don't agree with what they teach so I have something to tell them. Another example of not all Christians being alike.
Maybe there's something else that both of you are interested in that might be a more common ground of discussion.

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exactly, let them belive what they want. I dont agree with christian views, but im not out to convert or 'beat' their religion

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HAIL SATAN!!

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That was a very intelligent response, Bobbi.

just tell him that a girl cant come from a guys rib and that snakes dont talk

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I've never read The Pagan Christ, but I would not argue someone based off fictional literature (although it seems to be done here regardless, dosen't it?). All you've got to do is 1.) Become familar with the Bible 3.) Think for yourself and 9.) Do some research on evolution. Go to your local bookstore and look around. Theres tons of books on evolution vs. creation. But what it basically boils down to is that there are no facts supporting the story of Creation and plenty on evolution. Creationist facts are simply anwsers to questions that haven't been solved and turn out to be lazy solutions. Arguing with a creationist can be hard seeing that they are usually religious and love to pick at the holes in science that haven't yet been filled (but when are, are quitely forgotten).

Either way, I usually avoid this topic if I know my opponent is stubborn. It takes a mountain to persuade someone from religious beliefs, even though believing in evolution dosen't make you any kind of athiest.

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Has anyone seen the show Bullshit? With Penn and Teller
they have an episode on this issue. Of Course creationism is the Bullshit.

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Bullshit's a great show.

You can't win this argument. The type of evidence you could bring to bear will only work with somebody who agrees to think about things scientifically, which anybody who's arguing for creationism has already decided against. Both sides in this argument have to deal with the handicap that anybody who disagrees with them is never going to agree, no matter how compelling the evidence. People who proselytize for creationism or evolution are only trying to reach the people whose minds aren't sufficiently formed to have decided. That said, if you want to have a reasonable background in Evolution there are a lot of books out there.

And don't read the Dan Brown books. They're not as well-researched as they pretend to be and end up annoying people like me as much as they do hard-line Christians.

L,B'XXX - Infinity didn't say all Christians were alike. He wanted to have the firepower to argue with the people who tried to convince him of creationism. That's about as different from blindly bashing Christianity in general as you can get, and still your alarms went off. If he wants to argue with somebody proselytizing for creationism it's as much his right as it is for that guy to proselytize. Can the shit.

Very well said.


Lbxxx, all due respect...My opinion is that anyone claiming to be a true christian has thrown all logic aside for a belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
For a person...like myself to say this....this is not bashing.
This is a personal choice made and has as much right to be heard as the proselytizing christian.

If a person I meet mentions Iron Maiden.....we discuss.
If a person I meet mentions creationism....we discuss.
The Iron Maiden fans that disagree on best albums never take this "offended" stance.
Let me ask...why do most christians feel a differing opinion is an assault?


Dont answer as I already know....I am an educated ex christian. I know the mantra.
Just food for thought.

creationism just gots ass whooped in that pennsylvania

edit: court case

Evolution FOR THE WIN!!!

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Yeah well I'm fucken tired of these gay arse Christians because I have to spend a great deal of time with them, most of my friends are Christians, one of my boss' is a Christian, I hear the shit toooooooo often. I'm sick of hearing it.

"ill leave you alone if you leave me alone"

and accept that you probably won't get left alone. a christian is trying to do their best to save your soul, so i suppose its a noble effort

also, check out flying spaggethi ism. google it (thanks justin)

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I can win this argument:

Look my penis is bigger than yours!!!











quod erat demonstrandum

thank you

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PST 88-- He said, "How can I beat gay Christians in the argument, can anyone find me an essay or something?" That's the statement that I was referring to and I suppose it depends on how you want to take it.

I respect other people's ideas and I wasn't that offended by the initial post or anything like that. There's those of us who believe in Biblical teachings as well as evolution. I think there's ties to both somehow. I guess I'm more the New Testament type that thinks more about the future and what Jesus taught as far as what He did and why pertaining to the afterlife than in how we got here. It's interesting, but that's not in my personal forefront.

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No, you know what, I'm sick of them enforcing it on me, so I want to beat them at their own gay arsed game.

Well, at worst you could move to Europe

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Well, you know what you could do. When my kids didn't want to listen to something I was saying they'd cover their ears and sing --la-la-la -quite loudly. They still do that. It might look stupid, but they might take a hint.
Can you wear headphones while you're working maybe?
Pushy people bug me, too. To me they're a lesson in what not to do.

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I think all religion is stupid from Christianity to Satanism to Buddhism whatever it's just a guide of how to live your life and i think you should make your own morals.

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Don't do that. Whatever it is over here, better is not among it. Preachers, of all kinds, is a global problem.

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Well, where I live (holland), most christians just keep to themselves. No preachy bullshit.

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yes those dan brown novels i mentioned are novels, but they contain many researched ideas that are very interesting

the pagan christ is practically a text book written by an anglegan(sp) priest so you know its unbaised

anyways im not saying anything thing presented in the dan brown novels are fact, just highly researched and very plausable ideas, most of which i beleive are true

the pagan christ supports a good amount of their arguements


once again this has nothing to do with evolution, its more about the history of christianity

edited for spelling

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the illuminatus trilogy makes those dan brown novels look like supermarket romance trash

when in doubt theres always the flying noodle monster

don't listen to him he has down's syndrom.
haha
well yeah I agree with the earlier argument, I mean I'm atheist myself, but let the christians believe what they believe. If he's a preacher, you won't convince him out of his religion with a little speech

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well yea sideshow bob's right Unless you sit and listen to the preacher and take in whatever he says you shouldnt be convinced to completely change!

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dont listen to him, he made a crack about butsex and got AIDS

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I've said this about a million times since I've been here:

If a 10 mile wide asteriod is on a collision course with the Earth and will most certainly induce the mass extinction of 99.99% of species on this planet, who would you rather place your faith in to avert the impending doom of mankind: God or science?

Unfortunately even this thought experiment is open to corruption from religious nuts: "But God gave you the will to create those nukes!"

What does this illustrate? That you can't beat a Christian in an argument, even if you actually do.

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thats how it should be
im a christian but i dont put my beliefs on anyone just because i think it shouldnt be that big of a deal, you dont tell me what to think, i dont tell you.

I asked my mom to do me a favor on the internet at her work office so I had to give her my school password; part of the password contains the word devil, and she's like....."matt, when I get home we need to talk."

That is almost the only reason why I hate people who take their christianity really deep.

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I eat christians for breakfast.

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That correct...because their leader is like magic and shit.

I think she just wants reassuring you're not a nutcase since you play a cello and have hippie hair. She's about my age probably so that's it wouldn't surprise me that's what's on her mind. Just making sure her baby is okay. Be flattered/thankful she cares.

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That's double bass you woman. Though she's older than you lbxxx, and most of the problem is my sister. She's been trying to brainwash my mom after the divorce into christianity--buying her dumb books and making her watch 7th heaven on tv.

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If they're really intent on creationism, specifically, point out that it's inherently unscientific because it relies primarily on ideas and 'facts' that are ultimately unfalsifiable; that its falsifiable facts are often falsified; that its a matter of faith and can only be dealt with as such; and that any attempts to deal with it otherwise stumble on the fact that it's impossible to submit it to any kind of scientific scrutiny. Once you point out that it can't be discussed as a scientific theory they'll be forced to discuss it as something else - as an article of faith, a matter of truth, whatever - which should give you an out of the conversation. If they continue to insist it is scientific, repeat that it fails to meet any scientific criteria and then refuse to keep arguing such a stupid point. Or just continue to argue. The best you can really hope to do is to get them to admit that it's not genuinely scientific, and then say you're deaf to any other kind of argument.

'Gay Christians' is pretty specific, L,B'XXX. It means the subsect of proselytizing creationists he's made the thread to bitch about. If he's taking issue with a specific group, there's still no reason for you should jump to the defensive, except an irrational reaction to any kind of criticism.

Heh, my parents confronted me after seeing Lords of Chaos on my book shelf. I don't hate religious people either (sometimes I actually consider myself to be a spiritual person) but when they try to tell me what is right and what is wrong, my temper flares.

well ill admit that im christian and that i like to listen to heavy metal and metal but i dont try to change people over to christianty(sp?) i just say believe wat u want to believe and ill believe in wat i believe in

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You should come to Greece and see.Here if you are not
a christian,you are considered to be a satanist!

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Wah!You are so gr1m.

Re file! its the same here in cyprus. if you choose to be an atheist your considered a satanist

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Gay can mean different things. I was taking it to just mean idiotic. Even if it seemed I was getting on my high horse, I really wasn't. Maybe I should have inserted a winking smiley or something like that to lighten the tone. It's cool. No big deal.

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not to be a nitpicker but ya'll got 666 in your usernames. i mean its a no-brainer

edit: that whole court case on evolution was fake news, there are ridiculous trails all the time, who here thought the intelligent design crowd actually had a chance, the judge scolded them, it was an embarrassment

People thought the Intelligent Design folks had a chance because we're at a very odd point in American history right now, where white Christians are whining about being an oppressed minority and taking their case to the courts over such issues as intelligent design and the 'happy holidays' signs most stores display instead of ones saying 'merry christmas.' The more extreme Christian groups, whom we've usually ignored as fringe crazies, have gotten a certain measure of respect and recognition due to the pandering of certain government figures and are now attempting to press the advantage before the oncoming tide of godless liberalism destroys us all. So expect some more of this shit for the next few years, until we again find them unworthy of our time and attention.

'Gay' can mean other things, which is why we rely on context to understand a term's specific usage. At least I do. You apparently do not. And if it was a big enough deal for you to post an unrelated rant you only bother to defend with a belated winking smily after its total irrelevance has been proven, it's a big enough deal for me to be critical.

well the fuck I don't

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Its just a number you know just some people who just thought of the religion of worshiping someone they havent even seen (satanism) decided to make 666 their Lords number. That guy anton lavey just decided to worship satan even though theres no motherfucking proof he exists... wtf?!?!

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Lavey did not worship Satan, contrary to popular belief. He believed satan not to be an actual deity, but rather a symbol of all anti-christian sentiment throughout history. He marked the start of his "church" in 1966, believing six to be a magical number. The funniest part? His son's name is Satan Xerxes Carnacki LaVey.

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Alot of my mates are getting into satanism only to be cool though they got their bibles so they think that they are now satanists.

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Then alot of your 'mates' are dumbasses who need a kick in the nads. like someone I know of...

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I agree they really do and i've told em what i think.

And i hope that person you know of isn't a hint at me

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It is. haha but I'm just fuckin with ya anyway, nothing personal

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the nice thing is that all the faggots who use 666 to seem metal and cool are wrong because the proper number is 616. it was a misreading of a shitty document that,until very recently was the oldest piece they had regarding the number.

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As long as it makes people uncomfortable.....it matters not.

i thought 666<or 616> was kaballism, jewish mystic stuff, i dont know much about this sort of thing beyond that they have numerical properties to letters and words in the jewish language

everyones always bitching about being pestered by everyone else. that can be stopped if you leave people alone

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Well...you hit a milestone for the stupidest thing you have ever said to me.

Congrats

I like opening my watch and seeing 6:16. I get the warm fuzzies.

Jesus Hoghumping Christ.

Little Tranny Man, you must be using some kind of super-powerful irony as yet unknown to mortals. Either that, or you have a double standard that you could put a gearstick on and drive up Ben Nevis.

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whenever a bible basher askes me that question i say that god created us, so he created our brain, so why can't we use it.
im a catholic and i dont get all up tight about it, and i live in kentucky. christanity is a great thing, just when the wrong people get in charge of everything. they use it for their own good and not of the others. just look at the spanish inquisition or the kkk, which is popular around these parts so i gotta watch my back. same with christans trying to boycott holloween. they dont even know the roots of holloween.but thats what happens when a bunch of jackasses get in control.
i do believe in god but im in favor of evolution.

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Yeah, you prove a good point, but of course I'm remaining atheist, but I do respect those of religion.

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Im 99.9% sure there is no God does that make me Agnostic

I think it's time for this thread to go bye bye.

Has anyone heard of Hillsong?

I think many of you hardcore evolutionist atheists lose sight of the fact that Darwin was a religious man.

Saying 'Darwin was a religious man' is a misleading reduction, something along the lines of pointing out to hardline Catholics that St. Augustine was a ladie's man. It's also extremely irrelevant.

Meh, my aim isn't to be relevant to this argument. I haven't read half of the idiotic responses this thread was sure to conjure up. Just pointing out an overlooked fact.

i think it should be enough to say no man will ever know about the afterlife untill they've reached it, and that people should just be "decent" during the present one and have that be that. anything else is asking too much

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but how is it possible to research the afterlife?? you have to be dead to go to the afterlife if there is 1 and you cant just tell people that are alive about it

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But what about those tards that think they died and came back....the light...the tunnel...the warmth. They claim they went to heaven.
(sarcasm)

You're absolutely correct Metal_Monkey....
Reality is not one human ever has come back from the dead.
If you heart stops and you're later revived.....you were never dead.
But you cant tell that to the goobers. People love drama.

If the experience happened to you, it would be much harder to dismiss it as shit.

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I think Bia and Metal_Monkey procreated and their progeny was the universe and all of its physical properties. How else could they be so insightful on such topics?

It's not an overlooked fact. It's a completely irrelevant - irrelevant to any discussion of Darwinism, of evolution, and/or of atheism - 'fact' that's impossible to be overlooked because it's brought up in every argument about Darwin as though an autumn years conversion means anything. It doesn't. It's just a stupid factlet that's always brought in as though it has any value to anyone outside of those overwhelmed with resentment towards atheists.

That said, nothing about evolution denies a God. It denies the Biblical account of the world's creation, the Biblical account of the world's earth, a worldwide flood, and humanity's special place at head of the table, but some kind of god could easily fit in.

Oh, and a 'near death' experience wouldn't happen to anybody who thinks they're bullshit. That's how these things work.

I recently heard a pretty interesting theory on the afterlife based on a strictly scientific basis. If your sleeping your brain is still active, hence you dream. These dreams have no time parameters. You could sleep for 5 minutes real time and perceive it to be hours, or even days in your "dream time". The same theoretically could hold true for when you die. The brain stays intensively active for nearly twentry minutes, going about shutting down it's various functions as the correlating parts of the body die. This invloves the brain firing off nearly all synapse systems and nervous functions. It could be compared to a epeleptic crossfiring in the brain I guess. This activity could account for what we see as an afterlife. Our brain stays active, and if the "soul" of a human is housed somewhere in the brain, that person could "perceive" the activity in his/her brain to be an actual reality; i.e. heaven or hell. This is scary, because if you have a fucked up imagination, you might effectively be sent to "hell". Whereas if you were an righteous and moral person, your "afterlife" would be a pleasant reminder of the good life you led. After those twenty minutes, brain activity begins to dwindle, but CT scans have shown electrical activity in a brain that has been dead for nearly an entire week. This twenty minutes, or a week, per situation, could seem like an Eternity to the person belonging to the brain. So near death experiences could occur in nearly every person, regardless of Religous affiliation or belief.

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I'm sick of any and all theories. You will know when you are dead is the crux of the matter. Neither science nor religion can explain any afterlives or lack thereof. It makes for a tiresome, droning continuancy of people trying to gain the upperhand in the argument when there is no upper hand to be gotten.

LOCK THE FUCKING THREAD

Relax man, I wasn't stating my opinion or shoving theories down your throat. I was trying to get some intelligent conversation out of this thread. Remember, arguing about religion over the internet is like the special olympics; even if you win, your still retarded.

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my point, metal monkey you moron, was that no one knows about the afterlife. everyone knows about their waking life. which should you put effort into

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Shut up, Pandemonium. When you're a mod you'll get to lock threads. Until then nobody cares when you want one locked. And don't whine about one-upmanship when that's all you've contributed to this thread, aside from quasi-obsessive bitching about its existence. If it bothers you so much, exercise a small measure of self control and stay the fuck out.

My point had nothing to do with the biological processes and everything to do with perception. Nobody who believes a priori that near death experiences are bullshit will ever believe he's had one, regardless of whether or not they're real. Simple.

i was a few stages from death and had no experience

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ahhhem
I haven't really read anything in this topic except for the first post so

Against evolution
Laws of thermodynamics some people believe disprove the theory of evolution. Myself I'm not really convinced, but its worth checking out espically the second law of thermodynamics

Fossil records can somewhat help the creation argument - google it, there is tons of shit, most of it shit but look hard.

Against creation
Other then the bible, creation doesn't really have anything backing it up. We all know the bible wasn't always correct, so why assume it is in this situation?

Finally, lack of proof. No real proof from either camp means this is a personal choice. You may believe in one thing and thats fine and dandy, but the other side could also be a possibility. It is a mistake in judgement to believe that there is one true answer without proof.

If your looking for other arguments and such, use google. better yet to narrow your search field use this http://scholar.google.com

I live in a highly religious area and it sucks cuz like I get beat up at school for my opinion on things (I am an atheist). Like many have said, people think if you don't belive in The Lord Jesus Christ you are evil and must be punished. At my school all guys have to have the same haircut (very short) and if you have a metal/satanic/or christian ideal challenging shirt you have to change. What makes it worse is I have not told my mother my beliefs, and ever since AA she has had jesus up her ass.

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Why dont you just ignore the thread then?
We all dont think like you.
Thank goodness.

Simple...
I'm smarter than you.
Period.

I know I just posted and everything but I was thinking and I came up with somethin'. If it wasn't for religion the world would be pretty bad because all the dickheads would rape, and kill,and steal, just because there is no hell for them to go to. It really sucks that we really need something we would be so much better without.

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All due respect....
that's the stupidest thing I read all day.

I dont steal, cheat, and whatever else because it's wrong.
I dont believe in god or satan or reward or punishment.
I'm good because it's my nature.


Sheeeeesh!!!

I kinda had to dumb it down because it's really hard for me to express what I meant. I just read back over it and it does seem kinda stupid, but thats the best way I could put it. I think that statement really applies to the past more as well. Religion kept order back then.

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I agree that perhaps to the less intelligent of the population...a good scare tactic helps.
But I also believe most simply are guided by their conscious.
I have known MANY christians that run on the belief that they can do wrong....because Jesus will forgive them.
So they lie...cheat...steal....act immoral and later...ask their magician diety to forgive them.

Christianity is one of the weakest religions around.

Free passes for everyone!

lol


[edit]
So..according to christianity... Adolph Hitler could have had a change of heart....not committed suicide and lived out his short life and gone to heaven.
Any god that allows that...is a fucking stupid god.

Yeah you finished saying what I was trying to say, thanks.

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Religion is gay

666 (616) = a number who gives a fuck?

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Anyone remember Godwin's law?

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no, what is it

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"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one. "

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"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison
involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one thread is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress.

Haha...well that "law" is false...

because I mentioned it and I'm correct.

But it's always fun to see how people use the most extreme examples to make a point, like Hitler as an example of extreme evil.

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You're correct. I was considering George Bush (most evil human to date)....but then I remembered he's still alive.

I thought that was a hoax. Wasn't the passage in the bible something like, "Six hundred, three score and six" i.e. 666?

Here's a conundrum: will every member of Islam go to Hell because they do not worship the supposed Christian God? Don't they worship their own God in order to be rewarded in the afterlife? It's ridiclulous. If their truly was one God, one almighty Creator, wouldn't He have sent a prophet to tell all the Bhuddists and Sikhs and Hindus that those nice Christian fellows have got the right idea? Or is He content to watch His "minnions" fight over who believes who is correct?

Oh yeah, I forgot: He gave us free will, that monstrous cop out of Christianity that avoids potential sticking points. If He gave us free will - and Christians believe this - then why can't preachers accept that a lot of people want to exercise this free will and not believe in a God. They don't need saving, they don't need rescuing from the clutches of that Devil chap, they're exercising their own free will of not believing.

And that is how to shut a preaching Christian up.

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Exactly John...well said.
[EDIT]John...isnt a score 20? So it would be three score...no?

One of my best arguments to christians is to ask them...

What about a man that lived in the deep jungles of South America 500 years ago. A man that lived a moral and good honest life but never saw a white man or heard of Jesus. This jungle dweller could not accept christ...could not ask for forgivness of his sins...yet according to the bible....he's destined for hell since he knows not Jesus.

Most christians stupidly answer... ALL men hear of jesus and there's no excuse. God sends out missionarys (sp?) so that all men have the option of choosing christ as their savior.

That's when you know for SURE you're dealing with a complete fucking idiot christian. And since 99% of christians believe the garbage in the bible...there's little hope of a decent debate.

If I rapred or killed someone, I'd be a lot more afraid of going to jail and getting my asshole torn apart than going to hell. Theres a little concept of Crime and Punishment that keeps people from committing such deeds.

Besides, there is such a thing as moral conscious, our decisions are based on what we think is right, not what we think will lands us in jail or in hell.

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Now I must be the one thanking goodness we all don't think like you.