MetalTabs.com - your source for Metal tabs
Home Forum FAQ Contact Us Link to Us


Go Back   MetalTabs.com Forum > Musicians > Music Theory


 
 
Old 2005-06-18, 03:31
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Post Thread On Modes

Basic C Major Scale Form

|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--| -1st string
|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|
|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|
|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|
|-----|--1--|-----|--2--| -6th string
|
8th fret


C D E F G A B C - C major (Ionian Mode)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6
--------A B C D E F G A - A minor (Aeolian Mode)

Basic A Minor Scale Form

|-----|--1--|-----|--2--|-b3--| -1st string
|-----|--5--|-b6--|-----|-b7--|
|--2--|-b3--|-----|--4--|-----|
|-----|-b7--|-----|--1--|-----|
|-----|--4--|-----|--5--|-b6--|
|-----|--1--|-----|--2--|-b3--| -6th string
|
5th fret

Relative Modes Of C Major

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode (Major)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

D E F G A B C D - D Dorian Mode
2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2

E F G A B C D E - E Phrygian Mode
3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3

F G A B C D E F - F Lydian Mode
4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4

G A B C D E F G - G Mixolydian Mode
5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5

A B C D E F G A - A Aeolian Mode (Minor)
6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6

B C D E F G A B - B Locrian Mode
7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7



Parallel Modes with a root of C

C D E F G A B C - C Ionian Mode
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1

C D Eb F G A Bb C - C Dorian Mode
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1

C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C - C Phrygian Mode
1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1

C D E F# G A B C - C Lydian Mode
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 1

C D E F G A Bb C - C Mixolydian Mode
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1

C D Eb F G Ab Bb C - C Aeolian Mode
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 1

C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C - C Locrian Mode
1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 1

Mode - Chord Associated
----- ----------------
Ionian - Major

Dorian - Minor

Phrygian - Minor

Lydian - Major

Mixolydian - Major

Aeolian - Minor

Locrian - Diminished

Modes Explained:

This example is using C as the root or the (I). This (I) defines the Ionian mode, or the first mode of the major scale. Each major scale as a relative minor scale, for C, the relative minor is A. The distance from a major to it's relative minor is 3 frets, or 1 and half tones. Minor -3frets- Major
I've shown the finger patterns for the C major and A minor scale above.

Next shows all relative modes of C major. Each mode starts off the next interval in the C major scale. Each has it's own characteristic (major, minor, diminished) and it's own sound in relation to C major.

Modes can also be used in parallel, as shown next, where C is taken as the root for every mode.

Next shows that each mode has a particular chord associated with it. This pattern stays constant, the only thing that changes is where you start from.

Not a great explanation of modes, but a good starter for others to elaborate on. Plz post any corrections... Thanks
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.

Last edited by davie_gravy : 2005-06-18 at 03:41.
 
Old 2005-06-18, 07:35
\m/Eat At Joe's\m/'s Avatar
\m/Eat At Joe's\m/
Metalhead
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: between the viaducts of your dreams
Posts: 98
To simplify, modes are if you played all the white keys on a piano, starting & ending on diff. notes than C (except Ionian mode.)
For example, Dorian is white notes from D to D. and so on with all the other modes. They sound quite proffessional-that's because the pros use them.
 
Old 2005-06-18, 08:43
BEHEMOTH's Avatar
BEHEMOTH
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: OLD EUROPE
Posts: 359
HI!
How are the modes of the harmonic minor second grade started scales. I mean. Harmonic minor: E F# G A B C D#- E Harmonic minor And how its called F G A B C D# E?

Thanks
 
Old 2005-06-18, 09:16
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEHEMOTH
HI!
How are the modes of the harmonic minor second grade started scales. I mean. Harmonic minor: E F# G A B C D#- E Harmonic minor And how its called F G A B C D# E?

Thanks


Key of C:

C Harmonic Minor : C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C
D Locrian #6: D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C-D
Eb Harmonic Major: Eb-F-G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb
F Spanish Phrygian: F-G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F
G Double Harmonic Major: G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F-G
Ab Lydian b3: Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab
B Diminished : B-C-D-Eb-F-G-Ab-B

Here's the box shapes for the harmonic minor modes.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.

Last edited by davie_gravy : 2005-06-18 at 20:30.
 
Old 2005-09-27, 17:51
Disincarnate's Avatar
Disincarnate
But why is the rum gone ?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Keeping the Groove going and staying out of Treble
Posts: 1,778
i kinda got what they are but how do i use them while playing?
__________________


Nothing is a waste of time if you use the experience wisely




Quote:
Guitarists are just people who could Never make it as a Bassist


www.riversofgore.com

Join The Forum CUNT
 
Old 2005-09-27, 19:30
amerok's Avatar
amerok
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: nashville, TN
Posts: 302
you can concentrate on playing the note which is being the root, that way that mode will stand out in your playing. Same thing goes with the 3rd and 5th of the key, since that makes up the chord that your emphasizing.
 
Old 2005-10-28, 21:49
Shreddist's Avatar
Shreddist
Supreme Metalhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 546
Heres another way to play the modes, its 3 notes per string, i find these better for shredding. This picture was originally posted by Darko Modes. But thats how i know all of the modes, and i think it makes more sence to me with the 3 notes per string.

-Drake
 
Old 2005-10-29, 00:18
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
That's an excellent way to visualize modes. That's how I do it, but don't limit the knowledge of modes to just 3-note groupings per string. I've expanded on that with 4-note groupings per string, also focusing on playing modes horizontally. It's helped me open up new ways to visualize the fretboard, plus a load of new sounds out of the same scales.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2005-10-29, 15:55
Shreddist's Avatar
Shreddist
Supreme Metalhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 546
I never thought of horizontally, im going to have to give that a shot, that sounds really cool. What are some ways you used that to help you?
 
Old 2005-11-06, 02:26
amerok's Avatar
amerok
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: nashville, TN
Posts: 302
yeah, thats how i learned them, but the bad thing about learning it that way is theres no change of key signatures so its much harder to hear the modes if youre running down the scales or something. Just something to keep in mind.
 
Old 2005-11-06, 06:52
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Something I do is apply the 3-note groupings on one string, run through all the modes for that string, then repeat for each string. Then, I'll grab 3-note groupings using 2 strings, pairing up adjacent strings and string skipping. Plenty of combinations, plus it helps build strength in your pick hand as well, you can legato the patterns, strict alternate, whatever.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2005-11-21, 23:49
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
That's an excellent way to visualize modes. That's how I do it, but don't limit the knowledge of modes to just 3-note groupings per string. I've expanded on that with 4-note groupings per string, also focusing on playing modes horizontally. It's helped me open up new ways to visualize the fretboard, plus a load of new sounds out of the same scales.


This kinda sounds like the bead method.

Manx
 
Old 2005-11-22, 02:31
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Not familiar with the bead method. Please elaborate.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2005-11-22, 15:15
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Well with the bead method you follow the Circle of Fifths counterclockwise. If you start on the sixth string you can use this information to name the notes accross the frets. If you know the mode starting on that string at that fret you can rip them horizontally. I hope that makes sense.

Manx

Last edited by lizardly : 2005-11-22 at 15:21.
 
Old 2005-11-22, 15:37
Disincarnate's Avatar
Disincarnate
But why is the rum gone ?
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Keeping the Groove going and staying out of Treble
Posts: 1,778
ive still not understood the circle of fifths
__________________


Nothing is a waste of time if you use the experience wisely




Quote:
Guitarists are just people who could Never make it as a Bassist


www.riversofgore.com

Join The Forum CUNT
 
Old 2005-11-22, 16:45
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disincarnate
ive still not understood the circle of fifths


Disincarnate,

It's a very fundamental device in playing music. It's created by taking the fifth note of each scale and placing them clockwise on a circle. So, starting with "C" on the top we find the fifth note in the "C" scale. I-C, II-D, III-E, IV-F, V-G, VI-A, VII-B. So we see that "G" is the fifth interval from "C" so we place it on the circle. Next we find the fifth note in the key of "G". I-G, II-A, III-B, IV-C, V-D, VI-E, VII-F#. So we see that "D" is a fifth interval from "G" and we place it on the circle. If we continue to do this the complete circle will follow...

C - G - D - A - E - B - C#/Bb - F#/Gb - Db - Ab - Eb - Bb - F - C

This is in fifths but if we turn it around and reverse the direction of the circle we are looking at fourths...

C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab - Db - Gb/F# - Bb/C# - B - E - A - D - G - C

The guitar is tuned in fourths so this is an excellent way to instantly identify the notes on the guitar. Notice the spelling of BEAD and hence the name BEAD Method

It's also a great way to know what chords play together. They are grouped in threes. If you play the minor of each chord you will have a full complement of chords.

Hope that helps,

Manx
 
Old 2005-11-22, 17:28
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disincarnate
i kinda got what they are but how do i use them while playing?


Disincarnate,

The most common misconception of modes is that they are scales. No, not just scales. Modes only find their context within music. The scales only sound modal when played against certain chord progressions. If you wish to play in Dorian mode your music will center around the second interval of a scale. For example, if you wish to play Dorian C, then your music will center around the Dm chord. You will be playing in the key of C. As long as you play your solos in the key of C your song will have a Dorian sound. Playing the Dorian C modal scale only helps to make an emphasis of the "D" note so to reinforce the Dorian sound. The best way to understand modes is to mess with them.

Manx
 
Old 2005-11-23, 20:33
vivaldi
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5
ok i did not understand this : - your playing Bm. Its G major thirds. so just play G maj over Bm. your playing B phrygian. simple Math.
ok so far I figured out that G major third is Bm. anda how come this becomes B phrygian? what happens if i played C maj or Fm scale over B minor?
is there a way/formula to remember this method?
and dude, simple math ........whats math gota do with this ?
I need help from you PRO guitarist pls.
(i ve understood circle of fifths,construction of chords, scales, arps and formation of modes lit bit )
 
Old 2005-11-23, 22:15
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivaldi
ok i did not understand this : - your playing Bm. Its G major thirds. so just play G maj over Bm. your playing B phrygian. simple Math.
ok so far I figured out that G major third is Bm. anda how come this becomes B phrygian? what happens if i played C maj or Fm scale over B minor?
is there a way/formula to remember this method?
and dude, simple math ........whats math gota do with this ?
I need help from you PRO guitarist pls.
(i ve understood circle of fifths,construction of chords, scales, arps and formation of modes lit bit )


Vivaldi,

OK let's drop the math and let's think theory... Now what I just described is what is known as derivitive playing. In other words your playing is derived from one of the modes of a scale. If I get your question right, what other scales can you play against the phyrgian mode? Let's talk major scales first and then perhapse you will see the picture here. If you look at the circle of fifths you will see that the "C" is the subdominant and that "D" is the dominant. "G" is the tonic chord.

Let's look at the key of "C": G A B C D E F
Let's look at the key of "G": G A B C D E F#
Let's look at the key of "D": G A B C# D E F#

Notice that each of these scales is only one note away from the others. So if you were to play G Maj you could play any of these scales and would have good results. OK, the natural minor of G is Fm and C is Am and D is Bm... Are you seeing it yet? There is no difference in the notes between the minor and the major scale.

Am: B C D E F G A
Em: B C D E F# G A
Bm: B C# D E F# G A

This what is commonly known as playing in parallel. It's mostly used in Jazz and Country but you could just as easily use it if you are playing Rock Fusion. Just remember that the further away you get on the circle of fifths, the less likely your scales will be compatable...

Hope that helps,

Manx

Edited to reflect two sharps in the key of D...

Last edited by lizardly : 2005-11-28 at 15:14.
 
Old 2005-11-23, 23:18
vivaldi
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5
thank u manx
although my question was out off this topic..i did learn new thing.
im not sure if that answers to my query.
ok let me again rephrase my query.(sry mate it might be my language prob aint english)
right , i hav problem remembering all modes and its intervals
however i found out that if u wana B phrygian ....u simply play G major scale. I did check all the notes and its correct. How is this linked. It would be very easy coz major scales are easy to remember. wouldnt it?
whats the reason/theory behind this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lizardly
Vivaldi,
Let's look at the key of "D": G A B C# D E F
Manx


and manx should it be G A B C# D E F#
correct me
cheers
 
Old 2005-11-24, 00:03
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
You are correct there are two sharps in the key of D... But understand that G is the tonic key so I'm saying the other two are only one note off from it... I'll have to get back after the holidays... Got a headache thinking about this..

Manx
 
Old 2005-11-24, 02:40
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
You need to know whether your talking about the key of D major or minor. That makes a whirl of difference! Which in this context is major.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2005-11-24, 04:23
vivaldi
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 5
modes scks
never understood completely
it keeps on gettin complicated
damn
 
Old 2005-11-28, 15:36
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
You need to know whether your talking about the key of D major or minor. That makes a whirl of difference! Which in this context is major.


What you both are talking about is the relative scale... G Major is the relative scale of B Phygian. The relative scale of D minor is not D Major but F Major. Care to argue? What's the key signature for D minor? The only difference between the major and its minor is the note that the you treats as the tonal center (The mode). I rest my point...

Vivaldi, Your on the right track... Don't lose heart. Modes are meant to make life easier not harder. You are correct... If you wish to play B Phrygian, play the G Major scale starting on the B and center your playing around that note. But, the mode is not in the scale, it's in the song. Center your music around the Bm chord. If you play in the key of G the song will sound Phyrgian regardless of what scale patterns you use.

Manx
 
Old 2005-11-28, 21:22
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Dude,


Your trippin out... All I was talking about was your typo, so don't harp to me.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2005-11-28, 22:27
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
LOL Sorry to offend...

Manx
 
Old 2005-12-07, 15:15
lizardly
New Blood
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 28
Vivaldi,

How are you doing with modes now? Didn't want to leave you feeling sour about them.

Manx
 
Old 2006-04-29, 13:11
MetalThrashingMad's Avatar
MetalThrashingMad
Death to all but metal!
Forum Leader
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Highway to the Danger Zone
Posts: 6,026
I made a diagram of the modes of the major scale for personal use in tabbing and stuff... could someone verify that they are correct?

Code:
|---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----| |---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----| |---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| 1 - Ionian |---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| (major) |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----| |---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| 2 - Dorian |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| 3 - Phrygian |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------| |----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| |---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----| |---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------| 4 - Lydian |---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| |---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| |---------|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|----0----| |---------|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----| |---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| 5 - Mixolydian |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |---------|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| 6 - Aeolian |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| (minor) |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------|---------| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---0-----| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---0-----| |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------| 7 - Locrian |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------| |----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| |----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------|
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus
"Ja mein little poodle, I will hang you by your nipples in my garage,

Last edited by MetalThrashingMad : 2006-05-27 at 15:49.
 
Old 2006-04-30, 08:11
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
The only one off is the Aeolian Mode

It should be...
Code:
|---------|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| 6 - Aeolian |----0----|---------|----0----|---------|----0----|---------|---------| (minor) |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------|---------| |----0----|---------|----0----|----0----|---------|---------|---------|
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-05-03, 19:02
MetalThrashingMad's Avatar
MetalThrashingMad
Death to all but metal!
Forum Leader
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Highway to the Danger Zone
Posts: 6,026
Thanks
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amadeus
"Ja mein little poodle, I will hang you by your nipples in my garage,
 
Old 2006-05-27, 06:13
Shreddist's Avatar
Shreddist
Supreme Metalhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 546
So how exactly do you go about connecting the modes to create a run or such?
__________________
 
Old 2006-05-27, 15:40
amerok's Avatar
amerok
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: nashville, TN
Posts: 302
do you mean over changes?
 
Old 2006-05-27, 17:21
Shreddist's Avatar
Shreddist
Supreme Metalhead
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 546
Yes, and just connecting them in general so they sound smooth.
__________________
 
Old 2006-05-28, 06:10
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
the patterns repeat shapes across multiple strings...like



Em run


e----------------------------------7-8-10-12
B---------------------------7-8-10
G--------------------4-5-7
D--------------4-5-7----
A--------2-3-5
E--2-3-5

--shape--------|--repeat--|---repeat-----|
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-09-21, 03:09
OpethFan's Avatar
OpethFan
Toast-whore
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where the grass is green, and the girls 69.
Posts: 1,473
I am just starting to learn modes and I'm not too sure where to use them.

I realise if i play like

C Ionian then D Dorian then E Phrygian it progresses uses all the notes in the major scale I started with.

Or if I am soloing over a Chord progrssion, say C, Em, Dm, Am - Since I have learnt these modes I can find the root note of the current chord easy ect.

But can you use them for example, if i was playing over a C maj chord, could I play C Locrian over it?

I cant really explain because I dont know what im talking about enough...

Really could someone show me maybe some excercises where I can realise the use of modes?
__________________
My bands page ^

Think my attitude stinks?? You should smell my fingers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB_ZE_METALLEU
yeah, one night he (BassBehemoth) came with some GHB and he put it in my drink, when i woke up....i lost my hymen....terrible


 
Old 2006-09-21, 15:19
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
There's now law that says you can't play C Locrian over a C maj chord. Yea it might now sound good on particular notes in the Locrian mode, but pitch axis tells us you can play any C mode over any C chord and make it work. The guidelines for what mode over what chord are outlined in my first post in this thread...


Mode - Chord Associated
----- ----------------
Ionian - Major

Dorian - Minor

Phrygian - Minor

Lydian - Major

Mixolydian - Major

Aeolian - Minor

Locrian - Diminished

If you wanna play C Locrain, play it over a C diminished chord. Each mode is associated with a particular chord type that it sounds best over. So C Ionian, C Lydian, and C Mixolydian would sound good over a C maj chord. Understand?
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-09-22, 05:57
OpethFan's Avatar
OpethFan
Toast-whore
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Where the grass is green, and the girls 69.
Posts: 1,473
Ahh thanks man!

I have learnt about what chords to play in a scale, like for Cmaj it would be

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim

But I didnt realise that you could use the modes with the chords like that, so thanks!
__________________
My bands page ^

Think my attitude stinks?? You should smell my fingers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOB_ZE_METALLEU
yeah, one night he (BassBehemoth) came with some GHB and he put it in my drink, when i woke up....i lost my hymen....terrible


 
Old 2006-09-22, 15:14
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpethFan
Ahh thanks man!

I have learnt about what chords to play in a scale, like for Cmaj it would be

C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim

But I didnt realise that you could use the modes with the chords like that, so thanks!



No Problem! Glad I could help.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-09-23, 14:53
JonR
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 67
'Scuse me butting in, but there seems to be a hint of confusion floating around here...
Modes are a way of analysing and describing the sounds of scales against different root notes or chords. They are also a system of composition that is different from keys (not contained within keys).
They are not primarily a way of improvising (on existing music). They are not fretboard patterns. (An "A Aeolian" fretboard pattern won't sound like A Aeolian if played over C or Dm, or anything but Am.)

lizardly's info is good, but the statement "If you play in the key of G [over a Bm chord] the song will sound Phrygian regardless of what scale patterns you use" - is potentially misleading, because of the ambiguity of the phrase "key of G" (he means the G major scale, that set of notes).
IOW, the statement is correct, but B phrygian mode is not "in the key of G". It uses the same notes as the key of G major. But it's not in the key of G any more than the key of E minor is "in the key of G".
"In the key of G" implies G is the tonic note. G is not the tonic in B phrygian mode; B is.
IOW, a mode is not in a key; it is itself like a key. It's something a piece of music is IN to start with.
If you have a chord sequence in G major, and you get a Bm chord, you are not suddenly in B phrygian mode. What you have is a iii chord in the key of G, not a i chord in B phrygian. The difference is subtle, but important - because it's to do with SOUND, not theory; and such tiny distinctions in language tend to build into enormous levels of confusion.


If you have a Dm chord, and you play the C major scale over it (whether you call the pattern A aeolian, B locrian, C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian or G mixolydian), you will get a D dorian sound.
IOW, if someone was to play a D bass note, and you noodled around on the white notes of the piano. D dorian mode is the sound that would come out (you don't even have to know what notes you're playing). If the bassist changed his note to A, then your noodling would become A aeolian. IOW, you are not in control - the bassist is!
Of course, the mode would change if you started replacing one or more white notes with a black note.
E.g., if that bassist was still banging away on D, and you inserted an F# into the scale instead of F (keeping the rest of the white notes) - then you'd have D mixolydian mode. He changes to A - hey presto, A dorian mode.

If you have a standard chord sequence in a major key (let's say G-D-Em-C, a I-V-vi-IV in G major), then modes - in their true sense - are irrelevant.
OK, if you've learned all your major scale patterns as modes (patterns with mode names) then they're not exactly irrelevant! That's what your knowledge consists of! But they have no bearing on the chords. You can pick any G major pattern for any chord, it will work.
The advantage of mode patterns is if you don't know the notes. You can see the D chord and think "ah, D mixolydian mode" - assuming you know the V chord of a key takes mixolydian mode - and go straight to a pattern that has all the right notes.
The disadvantage of this method (and it's a big one) is that you're limited to one pattern per chord. It means you'll be in one position for one chord, then moving up or down the neck to play the right mode pattern for the next chord. Do you see pros doing that? No, you don't...
Also, you have no real idea how the notes in the pattern relate to the chord musically.

However, the better method does require a fair amount of learning.
You need to know all the possible chord shapes for every chord (at least 5 for each major, 3 for each minor).
You need to know which notes in each shape are the root, 3rd and 5th.
You need to know a fair amount of the fretboard (at least the 6th and 5th strings so you can place chords by their roots).
Ultimately, it helps to know the whole fretboard. (But you should be working towards that anyway.)
You need a working knowledge of keys - ie what chords are contained in what keys, how to identify a key from a chord sequence.

The advantage of this method is you are free from memorising patterns forever. Scales are no mystery. No need to remember modes, or any rules about applying them; only the construction formula for a major scale.
So when you see that sequence G-D-Em-C, (a) you know it means G major scale; (b) you know all the shapes you could use for each chord; (c) you know all the positions of all the notes you can use; (d) you can build notes off the chord arpeggios.
You'll be able to play a solo in ANY position on the neck, on ANY chord. (All modes and keys are available in all positions.) This makes for musical solos, rather than disjointed ones with breaks between chords.

There's no need for a scale pattern to have the chord root as its lowest note (this is the fallacy that the mode pattern system implies). That's not a bad foundation - but it's too limiting. Every scale, every mode, runs all over the neck. Every pattern has 2 or 3 roots in it (just as it has 2 or 3 of every scale note).
What matters - musically - is to know how and where to find the 1-3-5 of each chord, and then the 7-9-11-13, according to what key you're in.
This requires knowledge of the basic chord shapes, and the various modal additions to each.
OK, yes, that's using modes! But it's using them from the basis of a chord shape/arpeggio, not from an isolated fret pattern.
E.g., you need to be able to take a D triad (any shape) and know where the b7 or maj7 would be; where the 6 and 9 would be; and where the 4 or #4 would be. Then you have all your 3 modal options (ionian, mixolydian, lydian). (The 6 and 9, btw, apply to all 3 modes, and give you the major pent of the chord root - highly useful!)
Actually, this isn't a great deal of knowledge. 5 major triad shapes (only 2 of which are very common as movable options), 3 minors (ditto, 2 common movable ones). Each one has 2 added notes to give you the universal pentatonic (for minor chords these are the 4 and b7); and 2 more notes which define which of three modes the chord could cover.
(The dim chord? Forget it...at least for rock music.)

The harder part, perhaps, is being able to identify the scales (and full modal chord types) that any chord sequence indicates.
But if you can identify a major key scale, shared by all the chords, then you know which single modal option you have for each chord. (This is if you don't yet know the neck well enough to find all the scale notes that way.)
And even if you can't, you still have the pentatonic for each, which gets you a hell of a long way - provided you have those 8 chord shape options under your belt, to save you zooming up and down the neck all the time.
 
Old 2006-10-02, 13:10
5667's Avatar
5667
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 57
I understand modes and how to use them in chord progressions but can some one explain how to use them in conjuction with power chords? I heard that its different when using power chords rather than triads, (Maj, min, dim) and 7th chords etc.
__________________
RIP Dimebag

Last edited by 5667 : 2006-10-02 at 13:13.
 
Old 2006-10-02, 18:06
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Quote:
Originally Posted by 5667
I understand modes and how to use them in chord progressions but can some one explain how to use them in conjuction with power chords? I heard that its different when using power chords rather than triads, (Maj, min, dim) and 7th chords etc.


It's actually easier to use them with power chords because power chords are not major/minor specific chords. root/5th is in every mode (except Locrian which is b5th) so technically you could use any mode you wanted over a power chord for that root.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-10-02, 19:30
amerok's Avatar
amerok
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: nashville, TN
Posts: 302
haha, damnit davie, you always get to answer the questions :P
 
Old 2006-10-02, 21:46
5667's Avatar
5667
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 57
Alright cool. Thanks.
__________________
RIP Dimebag
 
Old 2006-10-03, 17:41
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Quote:
Originally Posted by amerok
haha, damnit davie, you always get to answer the questions :P



hehe, sorry bro! I'm usually too late. I just get lucky I can answer the ones I do catch.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-10-23, 03:10
TangledMortalCoil's Avatar
TangledMortalCoil
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVA
Posts: 300
Question

trying to understand theory, so be patient with me. question: can mode shapes be shifted across the neck? for example, i know the E phyrgian shape in the open position, so if i shift it over one fret and play the same pattern, is that now F phrygian?
 
Old 2006-10-23, 04:04
amerok's Avatar
amerok
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: nashville, TN
Posts: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by TangledMortalCoil
trying to understand theory, so be patient with me. question: can mode shapes be shifted across the neck? for example, i know the E phyrgian shape in the open position, so if i shift it over one fret and play the same pattern, is that now F phrygian?


yes
 
Old 2006-10-23, 10:56
JonR
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by TangledMortalCoil
trying to understand theory, so be patient with me. question: can mode shapes be shifted across the neck? for example, i know the E phyrgian shape in the open position, so if i shift it over one fret and play the same pattern, is that now F phrygian?
If you mean UP one fret (towards the bridge), yes. (Pattern can't be shifted across the neck, because of the tuning differences between strings.)
Remember the root note has to be the aural root (sound like the root). Otherwise it's just a pattern of the parent major scale (E phrygian = C major, F phrygian = Db major).
(See rest of thread.)
 
Old 2006-10-23, 12:47
TangledMortalCoil's Avatar
TangledMortalCoil
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVA
Posts: 300
yes, i meant shifting up one fret towards the bridge. thanks for your replies... to make a long story short, i needed to know because i had this riff i made up and i was trying to turn it into a 2-guitar harmony, so i first had to figure out what scale/mode it fit in.. and the phrygian shape worked.

let's say that i had a completely improvised riff and i wanted to harmonize it, but it didn't happen to fit into any ascertainable mode.. is there any other way? i mean how could you calculate, say, 3rds if you didn't know what scale/mode you were in??
 
Old 2006-10-23, 14:42
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Well...

You could do a parallel harmony, which means you would play say a perfect 4th against every interval in your riff, regardless of what note it is. You can always play an interval you want against any note. It's the fact of whether you like how that harmony sounds against that interval that the given time.

If you wanted to play a minor 3rd to every interval in your melody, just locate the root, then come down a string and back (towards the nut) 2 frets and you got the minor 3rd.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-10-23, 17:46
JonR
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by TangledMortalCoil
yes, i meant shifting up one fret towards the bridge. thanks for your replies... to make a long story short, i needed to know because i had this riff i made up and i was trying to turn it into a 2-guitar harmony, so i first had to figure out what scale/mode it fit in.. and the phrygian shape worked.

let's say that i had a completely improvised riff and i wanted to harmonize it, but it didn't happen to fit into any ascertainable mode.. is there any other way? i mean how could you calculate, say, 3rds if you didn't know what scale/mode you were in??
It's highly unlikely you'll invent a riff which doesn't fit some scale or other. But assuming you can't identify it...

Apart from davie's suggestion, you could pick any other note from your scale.
I mean, I assume your riff will contain at least, say 3 or 4 different notes. Treat those notes as the scale, whether or not it matches any scale you know. Just use other notes from that set as harmonies.
If in doubt - or if the intervals don't seem to work - use your ear: pick any note, and move it this way or that until it sounds right. (You'll probably find that this exploration adds missing notes from the unknown scale, helping you identify it.)

Your ear is always the best method when harmonising. Even if you know the scale you're using, don't feel you have to stick to it when harmonising. Normally you would (that's safe and easy, and will work), but occasionally chromatic notes work better.
Using your ear can be slow - it may take several attempts (including recording each harmonisation and listening to it) before you're happy with the result.
It can also help to play the harmony alone (without the lead line), to see how it sounds. Good harmonies make their own melodies or riffs.

Even so, quite often, you end up with choices you can't decide between - which is where theory can help.
 
Old 2006-10-23, 21:23
TangledMortalCoil's Avatar
TangledMortalCoil
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVA
Posts: 300
thanks again. i have tried all of these methods and they all make sense.. plus more importantly, they work. in fact, davie's suggestion about going back a string and two notes toward the nut just made me realize that this stuff has been right under my nose all along.. a simple powerchord contains a root and a 3rd (and a 5th) and you can use that fingering to find pairs of thirds all over (minding the 2nd string). this thread is damn helpful.

EDIT: while i like the ease of applying the minor 3rd technique davie mentioned, it sounds different from the result i get when i calculate the 3rds of my riff based on the phrygian mode.. is this because the phrygian mode is relative to a major scale?

by the way, this guy's articles on intervals and modes are also kinda useful for theory beginners like myself: http://www.guitarnoise.com/authors.php?id=25

Last edited by TangledMortalCoil : 2006-10-23 at 21:42.
 
Old 2006-10-24, 14:29
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Well your diatonic harmonies will always sound more rich and melodic. Phrygian mode is a diatonic 3rd up from the major scale. The parallel harmonies will have some dissonant intervals because the propteries of the major scale dont' always line up with a set.. say minor 3rd interval. Some intervals are minor, some are major. Look in the first post to see what intervals are major/minor/diminished then you will know what harmony to play at any given interval.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
 
Old 2006-10-24, 16:19
JonR
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by TangledMortalCoil
thanks again. i have tried all of these methods and they all make sense.. plus more importantly, they work. in fact, davie's suggestion about going back a string and two notes toward the nut just made me realize that this stuff has been right under my nose all along.. a simple powerchord contains a root and a 3rd (and a 5th)
You mean a triad . A powerchord only contains root and 5th.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TangledMortalCoil
EDIT: while i like the ease of applying the minor 3rd technique davie mentioned, it sounds different from the result i get when i calculate the 3rds of my riff based on the phrygian mode.. is this because the phrygian mode is relative to a major scale?
Yes. As davie explained, sticking to the same kind of 3rd takes you out of key (or mode). If you want to maintain phrygian mode, all of your harmonies need to come from that scale. As with any major scale mode, 4 of the notes are harmonised with minor 3rds, 3 with major 3rds.

So with E phrygian, it works like this

E -> G = minor 3rd
F -> A = major 3rd
G -> B = major 3rd
A -> C = minor 3rd
B -> D = minor 3rd
C -> E = major 3rd
D -> F = minor 3rd

If you used all minor 3rds, you'd effectively be harmonising E phrygian with G phrygian - you'd have a bi-tonal piece of music! (Might sound cool, but would be very strange...)
 
Old 2006-10-24, 18:03
TangledMortalCoil's Avatar
TangledMortalCoil
Senior Metalhead
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVA
Posts: 300
^ yeah, i meant triad ..the point is there's a 3rd in either one! anyway, thanks again. i just need to read more about intervals. that excel spreadsheet (mentioned in another thread) is real useful. my entire application of scales and modes so far is based on patterns and numeric intervals.. i'm just trying to know more about the underlying theory.
 
Old 2008-10-16, 16:39
CalledToArms
New Blood
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3
great thread so far! I've really been digging into modes later (Dave Weiner has some great videos on youtube for an introduction).

You guys are lucky to have some of the people here that are answering your questions in this thread. I am not as advanced as them but everything I have learned on my own or asking friends has been restated correctly here by Davie and the others. Its great information! I just happened across this forum today while I was thinking about a progression I wrote and was trying to apply modes to for my band.

On to my question...Its a long one (mainly because I am long winded and not trying to leave info out haha). So bravo to anyone that reads the whole thing and can provide feedback haha. ie let me know If I am thinking of/applying modes correctly and any other suggestions are welcome.

The progression is PART 1 E-F-Am (x2) then PART 2 C-Am-A#/Bb (x2) in each case the first chord is a whole note and the last two chords are half notes

I wrote it without thinking in terms of music theory, it was just a progression that sounded cool to my ears, but now that I want to put a lead on top of it, I have started to kind of evaluate it this 1) so I can ultimately get a cool lead laid out for it, and 2) it seemed like a good exercise for modes after I looked at the progression I had put together. And maybe it will be a good example for others here if we analyze it together.

First thing that I noticed was the presence of 2 major chords 1 half step apart to start my first progression (the E to F). They immediately gave off a cool vibe which is why I liked them when I was writing. After looking some stuff up, it seems like the E-F-Am leans very hard to being an A harmonic minor progression - more specifically an E Phrygian Dominant progression since I started with the V-VI (and phrygian dominant is the 5th mode of harmonic minor). To me, this calls for using E Phrygian Dominant on top of the first 2 chords to really bring out the sound that those 2 Maj chords next to each other evoked -or- maybe E mixolydian over the E to E phrygian dominant over the F if starting on E phrygian dominant was too "specific" to start with. This 2nd option provides a b7 which then moves into the adding the b2 and b6 over the F which might be kind of cool.

This brings me to the Am chord after the E and F. First thing I thought of was simply playing A harmonic minor of top of this since it is the key that my E Phrygian dominant was based off of – thus it shares the same notes and would flow pretty well even though it would have a slightly diff sound. The 2nd idea was to play A Phrygian to kind of keep the Phrygian sound and A gets Phrygian if you look at it in terms of Fmaj. The 3rd thought I had dealt with looking ahead to chords 4, 5, and 6 in my progression. I noticed that C-Am-A#/Bb is certainly NOT in A harmonic minor. These chords seemed to come from F major – or more specifically they formed a C mixolydian sound because it didn’t include an F but instead started on the C and ended on the chord based off a b7 of C. (and C is the 5th of F major hence mixo)

This led me to think of doing something interesting on top of the Am chord in PART 1 to indicate/transition smoothly into F maj / C mixo. Perhaps on the last time I am playing Am from PART 1, I could think about using E Locrian over the Am chord since this is the mode of E found in F maj - and A minor is in F maj. It seems it would both flow well after the Fmaj chord and segueing into the C mixo progression. This would also make my lead be something like E mixo – E phryg dom – E locrian which kind of keeps it congruent and adds darker tones each time ie (b7, then b2,b6,b7, then b2,b3,b5,b6,b7) I liked this because PART 2 of my progression has significantly lighter/brighter sound (F maj) and would be a good contrast to PART 1.

This of course brings me to the 2nd part of my progression, but this post is already long so I think Ill save analyzing part 2 for later and see what any of you think.

SUMMARY:

Part 1 of my progression:

E – F – Am

Possible lead structures I was thinking of at work:
E mixolydian (or major) to E Phrygian dominant to A harmonic minor
E mixolydian(or major) to E Phrygian dominant to A phrygian
E mixolydian(or major) to E Phrygian dominant to E Locrian

Thanks guys, you all have always helped me a ton!
 
Old 2009-02-02, 17:19
JonR
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 67
Quote:
E mixolydian (or major) to E Phrygian dominant to A harmonic minor
E phrygian dominant and A harmonic minor are - as you know - the same scale, so you are not exactly going from one "to" the other. It's the chord change that will make that same set of notes sound different.
The choice on the E is yours of course - but personally I would choose the same scale for all the chords.
(That's simply a matter of personal preference. In a sequence changing as quickly as this, I like to keep the same overall tonality if I can. You may prefer the disruptive effect of scale switching - and so might I sometimes!)
Quote:
E mixolydian(or major) to E Phrygian dominant to A phrygian
E mixolydian(or major) to E Phrygian dominant to E Locrian
A phrygian and E locrian are the same thing in this case. "E locrian" over an Am chord will come out as A phrygian anyway. No point thinking of it as anything different.
I'd agree this is a good scale for the last Am before the change, to anticipate the approaching tonality (C mixolydian). (At least a good idea to try it, see how it sounds.)

One way of helping you decide is to come up with a melody - something you can sing over the whole sequence. Certain notes (and therefore certain) scales are going to feel more "right" than others when it comes to melody construction. A melody will give a coherence and a logic to the whole thing.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off



Top

========

Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Disclaimer
Copyright © 2001-2014 MetalTabs.com. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.