While there aren't many grindcore bands out there, the one that comes to my mind is one of the most popular ones of the genre--Pig Destroyer. But as a musician, I question whether grindcore is just extremely brutal, or simply a collection of noisy garbage. While the older generation of music (beatles fans and stuff) would consider metal music in general to be nothing but noise, we know that it is like a piece of abstract art that only some people can understand, relate to, and enjoy. But has grindcore taken it too far to where it actually IS just a bunch of noise? Indeed the guitar riffs can be challenging, and the drums can be difficult to hold such a "beat", but is it so extreme that it's not even entertaining music? What are your takes on the most extreme music and whether or not it can be found interesting to a musician?

First off, there are a fucking million grind bands. Second grind CAN be noise if it wants to be. Other than that some is actually either very complex (somewhat--drumwise) or just intense. I am entertained whole-heartedly. The best thing is actually playing it live, it's a rush. To answer the question: Not noise, it's music.

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It depedns on the band, or sub-sub-sub-sub genera of grind.
Did you ever think that it may just be that Pig Destroyer are shit?

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I think you're right. I was heading more along the line of Agoraphobic Nosebleed/Pig Destroyer type stuff. I guess I shouldn't have labeled a broad genre (grindcore) with just one band -- but that sub-genre of grind is what I had in mind. I mean, I'm not totally against the PD type of grind, I was just wondering if many musicians actually thought of it as good metal music.

I only consider some grindcore to be extreme metal, most of it is the demented spawn of punk and metal.

I think it's possibly the most raw and expressional rock music.

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No bashing Pig Destroyer, you reeking stool-smeared vaginas.

Crux of your question - Is it so extreme that it's not even entertaining music?

Well, some of it entertains me. Like Nasum and Pig Destroyer. They retain certain qualities that allow me to call them music rather than noise.

Problem is - extreme these days goes further than just Grind. There is a cut-off point where your visceral appreciation of music has to turn into something else entirely for you to listen to it.

Metal that comes a lot closer to noise exists, stuff like Lockweld and Halo come to mind. That's well hard to even appreciate, as opposed to enjoy. Pure noise, on the other hand, like Azoikum, quite literally revokes its right to be called music. On purpose, too. It's like listening to two Scottish synthesizers fighting over a lost penny.

Good question.

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What's one, like Cannibal Corpse? That's not even that bad into the "noise" category too. Yeah, I really don't appreciate this type of music, and it's just plain fucking weird with all the gore ass shit. Seriously man, that's some pretty fucking nasty stuff.

i just lost all my respect for you. they aren't even close to noise. just because somebody can't handle death metal, doesn't make it noise.

agreed, except for the part about respect. you're still cool by me... just uninitiated into death metal. reminds me of myself, some months ago.

Well andrewc's obviously more true-ass motherfuckin' metal than you. Go cry in a pillow, Mr My-Respect-Isn't-Contingent-On-Whether-Or-Not-You-Like-Cannibal-Corpse. Other over-the-top comments to that effect.

I like the comparison of metal to abstract art. That was so silly I didn't bother reading the rest of the post. Very little of the metal we listen to is structurally at a point that's even mildly unrecognizable. Some is, but even then it's still notably musical. Grindcore's probably the first place it started moving noticeably away, and this fed back into death a few years later, but most of it's an easily recognizable musical form with certain surface aspects that scare off the

Jim is right in mentioning Halo. That's like playing an EYEHATEGOD record at 12 RPMs. Or something. Jesus I'm tired.

Basically when people tell me music like death metal, or in this case grind, is just a buch of noise, I respond by saying, "Yeah, music is noise you dumbass. Anything that can be heard is noise."

But anyways, I hate it when people say it's a buch of screaming. Now they need to be slapped. I'm a death metal vocalist and trust me, when I "sing" the death voice isn't much louder than my speaking voice, that's where a mic comes into play. And who sounds like a fucking demon when Ithey scream, like say trying to get someones attention from across the room? How death vocals can be considered a type of scream is beyond me.

Back on topic, grind to me is the "unpolished" version of death metal. It may be rough around the edges, but it still has that element that makes in music.

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Halo - that Australia "band"?

illow:



well i can make silly comparisons too. open your signatures, bitches.

i would compare metal music to chocolate milk. the guitars are the milk, and every time you tune down a bit more, that's like adding a teaspoon of chocolate for flavouring. it gets sweeter and sweeter as you add more chocolate to it but eventually, there is a point where it gets too sweet...you add too much chocolate, and the "darkest day of horror" album from mortician, is an album with too much damn chocolate in it that most people feel sick from listening to it.

Lots of grind does just fall into "noise". They just have the guitars play really fast and have poor production. Old Napalm Death comes to mind. Personally i prefer the chunkier kinds of grind. The most extreme forms of this is refered to crust i think.

Its novel looking to how bands evolve, as usually they start as something and finish in something totally different, sometimes this is good, other times it is bad. Example:

Napalm Death - Started out as crust, moved into slower death metal (slowly) and have now returned to closer to their crust roots. However Dorian, the origional vocalist now sings for a doom band.

I guess it coems down as to weather you can consider random actions (resulting in chaos) as an expression of oneself - resulting in art.

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You had respect for me? Hahah what a loser hee hee ho ho.

i feel like ive been listening to grind and old thrash,old hardcore for so long that i cant deal with slower forms of music, there are only a few exceptions that i can think of off the top of my head, everything else sounds to trite and boring to me

and also grind comes from the early us hardcore scene,years before the napalm album. bands like siege, no comment,crossed out and deep wound have been grinding monsters in thier day in the very early 80's, its power chord based song structure and i wouldnt call it noise at all, altho it is primitive, lo-fi and basic

i attribute crust with bands that are permutations of discharge with a touch of death metal, there was a big scene of that on the west coast and particularly minneapolis<profane existance records> in the 80's, his hero is gone pretty much owned that whole genre and nothing new or interesting has really came up in the last 10 years from bands who have this particular sound. i did hear that discharge is still touring after all these years tho

the noise/avante-garde stuff is still evolving, its very,very big here in providence<sister scenes in san diego,oakland and brooklyn>, alla load records. the problem with it is straight circuit bent noise is not entirely enjoyable to watch<even for myself>, it has to be applied to music. the locust is the best example of interesting moog sounds combined with off timed,complicated grind music, but even that is not just racket, all technical death metal bands would be hard pressed to cover a locust song due to thier complexity, it almost inhuman

Noise and grind till the end motherfuckers! Especially noisecore!

Curious stuff isn't it?

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You're Mr-My-Respect-Is-Contingent-On-Your-Opinion-Of-Cannibal-Corpse, andrew, so dry those eyes, young man, or it's straight to bed without beer or supper.

some grind is good, some is just random shit. they have their qualities, but need diferent minds to enjoy them.

i, for one, prefer brutal death metal over grindcore.

your mom likes chocolate milk


grind is noise, some is rather good noise (Fuck... I'm dead) , some is just plain shitty (agoraphobic nosebleed), and then there is some that is shitty, but so shitty that its great (anal cunt). its like any other genre, some is music, some is people wishing they knew how to play instruments just banging on shit.

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Noise is noise.
Grindcore is grindcore.

Grindcore is excellent.

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dammit, i knew i should have strangled more babies during my youth.

sorry sir.

and no moony, it's actually jarrod's mum (as far as i know) that likes chocolate metal.

i find no purpose for the grind genre.

10 year old kids can play grind. Gather 4 kids, hand one a machine gun, teach the 2nd one 3 chords on a guitar, teach the 3rd one the same but on a bass, and tell the forth one to burp the alphabet. Or if he can tell him to sum up what a butcher does at work into 5 detailed sentances of burps.

its a fucking joke. seriously, i dont think that lowly of grind. i just dont like it.

lol, thats funny,
hmm some grindcore is enjoyable, the rest is just a heavy sound that goes over the top of grindcore.
anyway, i know they're not grindcore, but The Dillinger Escape Plan are pretty much noise to me. imeanseriously, have you guys heard that new song...Panasonic Girl? holy shit the song is nuts. i cant make out a riff change in the whole song. Im new to The Dillinger Escape Plan, and i bought theyre new album...i liek it and then i realise its pretty crazy... is this The Dillinger Escape Plan?

As with most complex and challenging music, the more you listen to DEP the more it makes sense.

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Dillinger Escape Plan isnt grindcore though..........

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dude, Grind Core is fucking awesome.. I love alot of the noisy ones and the really heavy serious ones. I also like alot of bands that are death metal but incorporate grind structure and vocals such as squeels, screams, and shrieks. I mean, my band NecroFuckingLicious is a grind band, and no one consders it to be to be noise.

And btw, stop calling Dillinger Escape Plan grind core, yeah they do use blast beats and go all crazy but that doesnt make them grind. lol

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unless its cephalic carnage, its racket

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No way

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I Listen to all types of grind. I love everything.
I can listen to slow as fuck Cock and Ball Torture to fast stuff like Nasum.
But I prefer Gore-Grind or Death Grind over anything.

But as far as to call it noise. Yeah some of it is...but hey some people like that. But I would'nt say the whole genre is noise that's just fucking dumb.
Belive it or not it is a lot harder to write fast short, compressed songs than to write long ones. Think about it with longer songs you have so much room to add riffs and lyrics. But with short songs you have to get your point across very quickly in the lyrics and music.

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i think its just what people listen to... people wil either listen to it forever or will die after 2 secondes of it... IMO, its low end bass/guitars with drumms and some1 screaming... plus a bunch of dead people, necrophiliacs and murderers, if u want to get technical...
the first REAL grind metal thing i heard was 'i will kill you' by CC, (live by the way) i thought it was just pure shit on a dead crows ass, but in a year or two i might love that song... it all depends on what i listen to before that...

thats what i think anyway...

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Time surely brings tolerance (or maybe just loss of intelligence). I know that I bought "Prowler In The Yard" and "38 Counts Of Battery" by Pig Destroyer a year or two ago. At first, I thought it was just noise. But just recently, I listened to "Prowler In The Yard" all the way through and really liked it. "38 Counts Of Battery" still kinda sucks, though. The one thing I don't like about Pig Destroyer is that the vocalist tends to sound like a screaming girl too often. He rarely uses his deep vocals. That's why I've come to like Cattle Decapitation. Great grindcore and kind of Pig Destroyer style -- only the guy uses more death-like vocals.

BAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! ur my hero man!

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Personally, I don't like it. I listen to a few things deemed grind (Cephalic Carnage, Origin, DYING FETUS!, etc.), but for the most part I stay away from it. Talented? Yes, they are. But not very appealing, personally.

oh, p.s.:

I really don't like Pig Destroyer. And from what I've heard, I personally don't know how anyone could, but thats just me.

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Pig Destroyer sucks balls. They're the posterchild grind band, a lot of the kids into nu-hardcore/metalcore like them.......I think partially due to the girl screaming. Cephalic Carnage is awesome, more like a death/grind/stoner mix. Some better grind bands are Discordance Axis (technical grind, with high screaming), Assuck (death/grind sound) and Brutal Truth (if you can get past the sound quality). I really like Magrudergrind, but most people on here probably won't, it's a bunch of pissed off noise. My outlet for senseless noise. Some grind bands are good and some suck, just as in all genres. Usually I listen to a mix of tech/death, grind, and some prog, and melodic metal.

Oh, and CIRCLE OF DEAD CHILDREN........awesome!!!

Oh, jesus, how could i forget Brutal Truth?!

yeah, I like them too.

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thanks much

i always like it when someones cites cattle decapitation as good death/gore grind band. members of the locust started that band as a carcass nostalgia act

the interesting thing about the noise genre is that some people actually make oscillators and noise making machines, they take the electronics from toys that have sound effects, manipulate the circuts,do alot of crazy stuff to get the sounds. ive been at and played countless noise shows here, it just another form of extreme music,unrelated to grind,for the most part, but when its combined with instrumentation, thats something i see as new and interesting and definately a style of music that is original .arab on radar, hella, orthrelm,melt banana<the japanese are notorious for noise bands>flying lutenbackers,lightning bolt are bands that come to mind

i think it all came from throbbing gristle,sun ra and captain beefheart

I would call the bands you listed more death metal than grind Dissection.

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Grindcore's cool by me. If it gives me that special feeling, I don't give a fuck what it is, I'm gonna listen to it. I don't listen to much grindcore, but everything I ever heard sounded fine by me. This reminds me, Revolver just ran an article on the "10 Greatest Grindcore Records Ever." Anyone catch that?

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Considering Revolver fucking sucks, Im sure it was a lameass article.

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Interesting. I don't consider most of the bands mentioned in this thread to be grindcore. As far as my perception goes, Godflesh pretty much invented and defined grindcore in the late eighties, but maybe the term has shifted since then. Noise? No, not in any bad sense of the word.
"Streetcleaner", "Slavestate", and "Pure" by Godflesh are still some of my all time favorite albums.

revolver endlessly plugs the same 5 bands, nothing can bum you out harder about playing music than those tabloidish heavy metal magazines, even worst the stupid indie rock counterpart SPIN.

Godflesh? Grindcore? Are you serious man? Godflesh are like...I dont know..."industrial metal" I guess???

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Yeah, maybe so. I think I've always had a different impression of what grindcore meant...

Grindcore is the most terrible part of rock or metal or anything out there. i wouldnt even consider it metal. its just a bunch of noise clashing together to make some kind of garbage.

Ah, here we go. I think Godflesh was associated with grindcore back then because it was an offshoot of Napalm Death and no one really knew what the fuck grindcore meant anyways.

"Many consider the first true grindcore band to be British band Napalm Death. The genre was given its name by Napalm Death's drummer Mick Harris.

Notable bands
Agathocles
Agoraphobic Nosebleed
Anal Cunt
Assück
Benümb
Blood Duster
Brutal Truth
Carcass
Cephalic Carnage
Dillinger Escape Plan
Discordance Axis
Extreme Noise Terror
Leng Tch'e
Napalm Death
Narcosis
Nasum
Phobia
Pig Destroyer
Repulsion
Rotten Sound
Siege
Swarrrm
Terrorizer
The Kill
Unholy Grave
Wasteoid"

Taken from http://www.answers.com/topic/grindcore


Personally I would group all these into Death, Speed, Progressive, Joke, etc... but whatever.

\
Cry me a river, build me a bridge, and get over it



Yeah, some of those are more Deathy...I cant believe Dillenger is on there....fuck that shit.

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