Howdy everyone.

Awhile back I posted a thread asking for advice on excersises for speed thrash picking. Well mixing your advice with advice from someone I knew, I made up an excercise that did me well. I would pick the low E string from fret 1 two fret 22 doing sixteenth notes, changing frets with each measure. I was at 141 bpm and I was going to raise the tempo each week as I practiced everyday for longer than an hour a day. My forearm was completley comfortable and I could do War Ensemble, Raining Blood, and Caught in a Mosh(which I did along with the excersise), very comfortably at 141.

But then a month ago on Martin Luther King day, my arm got fucked. And I don't know how. Whenever I do the excersise now tension builds up in my bicep, tricep, pectoral, muscles around the arm pit, front shoulder muscles and a muscle in the back. And it's not like forearm tension where it goes away after you stop picking, it stays with you for a couple of minutes and I can feel the pain in my arm sometimes even when I am not playing.

Anyway, it has been going on for a month. So is there anyone here who has any advice about changing the position of how I play or is there anyone who knows what I am talking about and could relate?

Any advice would be great. If it helps, I play a Gibson Flying V '67 and I use ernie ball thumbpicks. I am probably the only metal player who does use thumbpicks but I don't have to worry about losing the pick in mid play because of it. I also play the guitar by my pelvic bone while standing up so my arm is in sort of a 90 degree angle.

So please help me out here because I'm worried that my arm might be really fucked or that it could be some sort of mental thing.

Thanks everyone
Dave

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I don't think that the thumb picks have anything to do with your arm being messed up. Right now, the only thing I can think of that may be causing the problem is that you might not be warming up before you play. Before you try to play anything fast, you gotta get the muscles in your arm/wrist stretched and warmed up. If I can think of anything else, I'll post again.

i think maybe lord_diemos is right.i had my wrist injured because of lack warming up.Now i could hardly downpicking.i had to alternate picking to reduce the pain.using thumbpick has got nothing to do with it.

I have never expierenced any kind of pain, but as the others said, warming up is the best advice. But not try to play something fast! I would say, start to play the chromatic scale and Major/minor scales of any key you like... start slow and get faster as you go through.....

I guess i never had this problem because I'm doing weight training for some years now, and my muscles (especially Biceps and shoulders) are pretty good trained, which turned out to help me building up speed and endurance for guitar playing. The only thing that sucks is that my right arm biceps are even more trained now because of guitar playing, and i need to take diffrent weights for both arms....

Anyways,

Cheers
and hope you get rid of the pain...

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I find if I play power chords or bars for too long i get sore wrist in my left hand. I think stretching before hand helps, so it may be worth doin.

Tendonitis, possibly. Talk to a doctor. Start stretching before you play.

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yeah man you got to stretch or warm up first. it helps alot. you could stretch your hands under hot water, that does pretty good.
if i had to id punch a baby in the face. SATAN RULES!

Dude, shut the fuck up. "Satan Rules." I bet you are 13 years old, and listen to Slipknot like the rest of your kind.

Eat dick.

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dude your probably playing banana thumbed try not and bend your thumb back it will fuck you up and you can get really messed up from it. you also might be holding the pick itself wrong, also loosen up it sounds like you might be way to stiff its all in the wrist.

I was just about to make a topic similiar to this...I'm glad this subject came up. I have the same shit, but not at that level. The pain I end up with while playing is from not being able to use enough wrist and fingers in my downpickings and fast triplets. I dunno how to break this habit without going to a guitar teacher cause I've been playing this way for 11 years. I was self-taught like most ppl, so playing with force is how I learned how to play fast in the picking hand which is very bad form. I can't get my wrist to move that fast and the strokes just don't seem hard and solid enough, particularly in power chord downpicking and 12th note hyperpicking. After a good hour or more of practice my picking hand feels like I've been running a palm sander . Yes I do good warming up practices before I jump into full songs and shit and the downpicks and triplets do get easier and less painful, but playing my guitar should never be painful. Help me too PLEASE!!!!!

stop using your arm to pick and start using your wrist and finger muscles. You will find that you can play very fast with little or no arm movement whatsoever. The muscles you should concentrate on using the most are the muscles between your index finger and thumb, supplemented by your wrist, your arm should not move and there should be no tension whatsoever in any arm muscles. Do a search on "Circular Picking" you should find lots of explanations on the technique. Good luck.

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what the hell are you talking about?

He's saying that if he had to punch a baby in the face to warm up he would, then he expresses his appreciation for the lord of darkness.

I do use my wrist and I try to make it relaxed as possible. For awhile I had no pain or tension what-so-ever until Martin Luther King day. Then the shit happens to my arm. And I am doing it at 141, which aint that fast.

Then again, my arm sort of does move when my wrist moves. But it subtley moves in the opposite direction of the hand. Like when I downstroke, my forearm will move upward a bit. It is like the wrist is a fulcrum.

Thanks for the Circular Picking search though. You know any good sites as well?

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hey dissection go fuck yourself! slipknot fuckin suck just like you.i bet you wack off to slipknot so just kill yourself you man fucker.

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WARNING:
INTELLIGENT DISSING IN PROGRESS

Wrong Topic satan rules 666

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hahahahaha wow, awesome comeback i hate babies! but punching them in the face?? and satan rules? if only we could all worship a man who would toture your soul after death for all eternity stfu "satan rules 666" you're lame

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yeah man you might want to see a doctor about that. if that many different muscles are hurting, you should get that checked out. other than that i dont know what to tell ya

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You're cool.

Here's a cool lesson, try it out.

http://www.insaneguitar.com/mc/alternate.html

(not specifically circular picking but he touches on it, I'll dig around for other stuff)

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damn dude...after reading the basics, I really need to relearn how to play guitar. All my speedy picking comes from my elbow

Yeah, you can seriously fuck up your arm if you're not carefull. It's a pain to relearn, but it's totally worth it in the long run.

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I really want to be able to speed pick, triplet, and downpick super fast without the bullshit pain. Seeing dudes like Erik(Deeds of Flesh), Tom Lesky(Gorgasm), and others make me sooooo jealous. I'm trying to practice the wrist technique more and more, but at the same time I don't want to lose any of the speed and techniques I already have. I guess the only reason my arm hasn't fallen off yet from playing this way for so many years is because I've also been bodybuilding for many years hehe.

So...whenever I tremolo pick, after a while mt forearm and bicep get sore, yet I pick with my wrist. My forearm and bicep just kind of naturally tense up. The soreness goes away immediately after I stop picking.

So what's the cause of this? Poor picking technique or what?

I think i know what you mean, i kinda do the same thing if i dont pay attention. I pick with my wrist yet to get speed i tense my arm to hold it still.

Try totally relaxing your arm while you pick, you will be slower at first. But i think the key is to practise with your arm relaxed

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R-rest
I-ice
C-compression
E-elevation
just lay of the guitar for a couple of days. make sure you soke your hand in warm water at night to loosen the tendons before using the rice method.
make sure u only use your wrist when trem picking, and not your arm

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Bare it, work through it

Probably already been mentioned, but unless under extreme circumstances (like v fast tremolo pickin). its normally better to use your wrist to pick, your forearm shouldnt move, neither should your elbow or shoulder.

also be aware that tension in your fingers can promote further tension in your wrist, forearm, bicep, and shoulder (i guess you could call it a contagious chain reaction). so don't try to crush your pick between your fingers -- especially if it's of the more compact variety -- and make a conscious effort to use the minimum amount of pressure necessary to control it.

some of the best musicians i've ever met have always stressed that good, competent tremolo picking is less a matter of force and more an exercise in finesse. even brutality employs grace.

Listen to these guys they are giving you really good advice. Rest is key.

I'll tell ya a little story. About 2 years ago I was pretty heavily involved in body building I used to strength train a lot, finally got my bench press up to 250lbs, I was VERY happy, as I only weighed 156lbs, shortly after however, I started getting bad tendonitis in my wrist, at first I didn't really pay too much mind to it and just started toughing it out. Very stupid of my because it only got worse...way worse, and evenually I couldn't even do 90lbs bench before sharp pains would run from my wrist up my arm, So, I eventually had to just lay off the weights period it took a good 6-8 months to fully heal, because I still had to lift stuff sometimes at work and use my wrist, but it did evenually heal.

What I'm trying to address is that you just need to lay off the guitar right and concentrate on getting better, take a week or two off and just try and heal. Trust me health comes first if you continue IT will worsen. You don't want any permenant damage.

When you do start guitar back up, I suggest as the others have warming up about 5-10 minutes SLOWLY and building tempo some cromatics, hamonic minor or diminished, or whatever your favorite metal scales are...those just happen to be some of mine and again just do some basic finger and wrist stretches.

I like to stretch my fingers by touching the tips of them together and pressing inward slighting and slowly and holding them there.

For my wrist I just I just hold the palm of my hand and bend my wrist back a little bit to stretch while having my arm fully extended...real simple and this has seemed to work alright.

I was actually having a bit of pains myself because i JUST started learning to alternate pick and I was starting to get pains in my elbow because I was too tense I think and just wasn't warming or stretching and just trying to make myself play faster than my body would allow. However, this past week I've been doing the exercises and stretching and I only have VERY little to no pains at all. So, it definately works!

I hope this helps and I'm sorry for rambing, but I'm just a little worried, because I know what your going through as I had to deal with the shit myself.

Chad

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not really poor picking technique, but kinda. it's natural for muscles near the ones being used to get tense and sore. often the shoulder will also get sore, i know mine did for a while and it didn't make any sense.

the key to playing fast is NOT to tense up and try to bully your hand into doing it. the key is to relax and remain relaxed.

try this: as you play, just randomly stop and take a second to think about which of your muscles are tense. none of them should be. is your shoulder? upper arm? hand muscle? if anything is tensed up, relax it. then keep on playing. this includes every muscle, even every finger on both hands.

people that play tensed up get sore and don't go fast. that tension, even in your neck/shoulder/upper arm, prevents the wrist and fingers from moving optimally. tension in your forearm and hands does so as well, obviously. people that start to consciously relax go faster and tend not to get nearly as sore

also, warm up and stretch before doing any serious playing.

Why don't some of you guys videotape your right hand and submit the video. It would be interesting to see some of your techniques.

I rest my hand on top of my strings when I play. My arm barely moves at all. It's all in the wrist for me. At times, it's just my hand. I don't know how some of you can do it with your arms. It must be extremely tiring.
I can tremelo pick through most songs without getting tired or sore. One that gives me some fatigue is "Hallowed Point" from Slayer. Some dudes hands look like only the thumb moves!

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Alright ... Whenever I tremelo pick, it comes straight from my elbow. Whenever I do triplets, it comes straight from my wrist. Slower picking too is used by my wrist. But whenever I pick above 200 bpm, basically I'm jacking off my guitar.

How the hell can I use my wrist for tremelo picking? I'm very sure that if I continue using my elbow, then in about five years I'll have some serious problems with it. I need advice from someone who recovered from the same problem that I have.

I also use banana thumb and I wear my guitar pretty high, like Rusty Cooley/Tom Morello high.

banana-thumb is always bad when it comes to speed-picking. if you want to learn to use your wrist, the first key is to just practice slowly and make sure you're using just your wrist to alternate pick. pay attention to proper technique, and don't let yourself slack off or cut corners. this may involve unlearning poor technique, in which case you'll just have to work at it even harder. keep your pickstrokes as small and concise as possible, as that's the real point of and advantage to using the wrist (and not the elbow) and one of the keys to speed. also, try to use as little of your pic as possible; don't put a lot of depth into your strokes (i.e. don't sink your pick into your strings and try to scrape the section of pickguard behind your strings). keep your wrist stable, maybe even rest the blade of your hand on the guitar's bridge (depending on what kind of bridge you have); this will help immobilize your elbow and place more emphasis on the wrist. i've even seen some people use their pinkies as an anchor by using them to grip the bottom edge of their bridge pickup; i guess this helps the wrist generate additional torque without the aid of the elbow. oh, and wearing your guitar high shouldn't affect much (although it probably makes it more tempting to use your elbow). it's better worn too high than too low, but you should experiement nonetheless.

for a while, i actually practiced with a pic that was shaped like a flat octagon, but its tip was a small cone. it basically made it necessary to do everything i just suggested above; if you didn't, the base of the cone would catch on your strings and stop you in your tracks (sounded like shit when it did it, too). it was a good learning device for tremolo picking, but i can't remember the brand name.

if you can do fast triplets with your wrist, then wrist-driven 16th note trem-picking at 200 bpm shouldn't be too far off. above all, practice with the right techniques and make a conscious effort to kill the elbow habit. i think that pretty much everyone who sets out to play aggressive music has had that habit at one point or another, so don't go thinkin that you're fucked for life or anything. just remember that fast trem-picking is more about finesse and less about aggression.

Alright, I'll try that when I get my new guitar.

leave the kid alone dick. satan is all over metal music. how would you like it if someone made fun of you're music? witch all sounds like the cookie monster is on vocals and all he talks about is body parts. and guts and shit like that. quit basing genras of metal there the same fucking thing.
and by the way. you're probobly 16 and listened to a nile cd last week and now hates slipknot. pathetic.

Well, the nail part of my thumb is bent inside at about a 30-45 degree angle (If I was giving the thumbs up, bend the nail part towards your hand).

Also, on a raised bridge, I find it extremely comfortable and natural to rest the meaty part of my hand on the strings just infront of the bridge. Just natural for palmmuting. For the notes that are ringing out, my hand 'jumps' off the strings and then right back down on them. (like i'm flicking a playing card with a partially closed hand.)

With your meaty hand anchored down, it's almost impossible to use anything but your wrist for movement (for me anyways).
Pinkie anchor is good, I have a habit at times to hook my pinkie on the high E string.
When I switch over to my strat, I find it a little less comfortable and I have a tendency to pick right where the middle pickup is. With quick string skipping, I hit the pickup with my pick at times.

Two different players: Jeff Hanneman from Slayer and Shannon Hamm from Death.

Jeff, on the still reigning DVD, looks like a player who goes from his elbow.
Shannon, on the Live in LA, uses only his hand. It doesn't even look like his hand is moving at all. It still amazes me. Check it out if you can.

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Yeah, Hanneman, Van Halen, and Steve Morse all do forearm picking. But then again you've got people like Rusty Cooley who use wrist/finger picking, so it makes sense which technique you ( I ) should work on.

If I'm not supposed to banana-thumb it, then how exactly do I hold it?

a combo of wrist + elbow movement can work well for trem picking, just be careful about ONLY using your elbow. that's no good, really.

but look around, watch lots of videos. everybody has a different picking technique. my favorite for technique is john petrucci.. watch rock discipline if you haven't. his technique is pretty much the perfect cookie cutter technique. that's who i've looked at over and over while developing mine, anyway.

the most important thing, imo, is to keep RELAXED. when you tense up, you won't be able to play that fast anyway. it's natural to tense up when you're playing a bit faster than you've been capable of for a while, but just stop and relax yourself and you'll get used to it. however you play, if you're relaxed, you shouldn't hurt yourself. you may want to do some anti-CTS stretches and warmups, but otherwise you won't be damaging yourself if you're relaxed while playing. and you'll play better - and faster

+1 on the relaxation. nah, fuck that. +10 on the relaxation. it's just that important. stretch more than just your hands and wrists, too: do back, shoulder, and chest stretches in addition to the usual stuff. it's all one big machine. i found that even shit like 50 push-ups in the morning and 50 push-ups at night before bed can really help with endurdance. you gotta spread the mitochondria around.

if i understand correctly (which I usually don't), banana thumb refers to your thumb being bent nail-up, away from the hand, with the knuckle bent/collapsed inward. if that's the case, then banana thumb is not good for trem picking. but i may be wrong. the best way (proper way, etc.) to hold it would be to have your thumb bent at an angle acute to the flat edge of the pick (i.e. hooking into it, or at an angle completely opposite that as defined in my above interpretation of banana thumb). it should feel somewhat similar to giving the hand gesture for "O.K." (here in America) or "asshole" (everywhere else in the world), but with the thumb more in contact with the cuticle of your index finger (as opposed to the tip of the same).

jesus fucking christ, does that sound just way too goddamn complicated to anyone else other than me?

Heh,its funny thumbs up means fuck you in some places.

well, because of this damn thread, now I’m observing what I do. First of all, I actually had a little elbow burn yesterday in my fretting arm for the first time ever! I think I was just tired (not enough sleep). Anyways, when it comes to just strictly downpicking, I have a banana thumb! I think the reason why I do this is to attack the strings with my pick being parallel to the strings. I was tremolo picking like crazy last night. I didn’t get any pain but fatigue would set in after awhile. I have a small callus on the index finger of my picking hand (it’s where the pick is resting when I play). Not that it’s anything to talk about.

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It sounds like you have a pinched nerve or something like that. As said before, it may also be tendinitis.

Chuck schuldiner has what you describe as a "banana thumb." He doesn't downpick though, and his tremolo picking looks fine to me.

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well just about any style of playing can work. there are generally accepted techniques, though, that work best for the majority of players. i mean van halen held his pick between his thumb and middle finger.. but would you say that, because he did, everybody else should?

banana thumb (as far as i understand it) requires tension in your hand. that's not a good thing, really. as has already been said.. you should relax everything. mike j was right about stretching your shoulders and everything else, too, because all of your muscles are connected down to your finger tips. tension/strain in one up in your shoulders/upper arm/forearm will prevent your wrist/fingers from being able to perform optimally. tension directly in your hand and in your fingers is even worse. the "ok sign" is great because you can hold that position and be completely relaxed. of course, other picking styles will work for many people (marty friedman is another example of strange picking technique that somehow ends up working), but it's a decent idea to show people the most efficient way.. and when they get better they can find some unorthodox method that works better for them if they want to.

many people self-taught people, though, start off with an inefficient picking technique and then become so accustomed to it that they don't think anything else would work better. they can definitely be wrong, if they'd try to "ok sign" style for a few weeks, chances are very good that they'd never go back to their original style. especially when they know the importance of relaxation when playing fast.

even though you're playing brutal metal fast as hell, you'll play it better when you're playing with loose, relaxed finesse instead of tense, brute strength.

what if you can't be completely relaxed to move the string and if you reduce the tension the string moves around too much? cuz then u can't play fast at all. I play Ernie Ball: Beefy Slinky and i try to play fast music.

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well you obviously have to flex your muscle a bit to move the pick through the string to pick the note.. but there's a difference between doing that minimally and keeping your shoulder, upper arm, forearm, and hand muscles extremely tense the entire time that you're trying to trem pick. it should be more of a flutter of the wrist than using all of your muscles to try to push it out. as i've said before.. finesse over strength.

try to learn both equally. would that do anything???

imo, it's best to practice as consistantly as possible. your muscles have memory, so if you train your fingers/wrist to move one way, it will do that consistantly. if you train it to do it different ways, there's no telling what will come out when you're playing 16th notes at 200bpm. that's why it's best to practice something *perfectly* slow and gradually increase speed, keeping the same exact technique. when you play it fast, you'll play it perfectly 99% of the time (that 1% is probably because you sneezed or something hehe).