Earlier today I was thinking about the roots of metal. I was thinking about bands like Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Deep Purple. While thinking about this, it occured to me that the roots of metal are firmly planted in blues, which really should have been obvious to me a lot sooner. I always knew Sabbath, Purple, and Zep were blues-based metal, I just never pieced it together that A. they are at the roots of metal, and B. that they are all blues based.

Then I'm thinking about other bands, bands not as old as those three, but bands from the second wave of metal. Bands like Judas Priest, AC/DC, Pentagram, plus let's throw in Ted Nugent because he ruled. Again, all are blues based. Then the third wave, the NWOBHM, was obviously blues based. It was only in the early 80's that metal really started to diversify and move away from blues. The only arguably metal band from the 70's that were not blues based were Rush, obviously jazz based, and although considered metal many years ago, most don't consider Rush metal by today's standards.

For some reason I just find this interesting. I'm not sure if it's even worthy of discussion. I just felt like talking about it. Whatever.

EDIT: My apologies for posting this in the wrong forum. Of course, I'm not sure what forum it does belong in. I guess it's really a moderator's judgement call, and that's fine with me.

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Did it take you that long to think about that? I think most people here would agree that metal (as is rock) is based upon blues.

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wow i can't believe you didn't know that....just listen to any black sabbath solo and you can easily tell it is of blues orgin

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rapeandruin, read what he just typed up again, carefully this time.

I'm not bothered if this is in bands or chit chat. It is relevant to both, so here it stays.

Blues is the roots for a lot of genres.

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Yeah, it's interesting to look back at the roots. I'd also say that Zep had some celtic music influence that they brought to metal and other bands picked up on. So then in the '80s, what other influences made those bands move more beyond their blues roots? What gave people the idea to get faster and darker? Seems like some metal guitarists started relying more on classical music influences, and maybe some on punk... any other ideas?

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Here's what I like to tell black metal fanboys:

Black metal is influenced by Black Sabbath.
Black Sabbath is influenced by rock and roll.
Rock and roll is influenced by blues.
Blues is influenced by gospel music.

Therefore:

The music you love for it's satanic imagry, limitless idiocy, and overall "evil debauchery" is nothing more than a descendant of the very church you claim to loathe.

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i would agree, the older shit yea definitally blues bassed but not so much nowadays. i woudl say black metal is way more classical based, incoprerating symphonies(dimmu, emperor) and classical guitar(dissection, ulver). i guess if you really wanted to stretch it you could still say they are cause there influnced by someone whos inlfuenced by someone whos influneced by a blues man...

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not bieng a "black metal fanboy" i find this true and yet BS, by the time it got the black metal bands it lost all its churchly persona, everyband took it and changed it and changed it so by the time it got to the early 90's there was no relation to the gospal music it came from. but hell if you wanna make that claim then everyform of music is soley bassed of someone hitting a bone on his head as the first drum

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The blues is like the father and the inspiration of metal. Today, however, there are some bands showing hints of classical or orchestra inspiration rather than blues inspiration. I'm not a big fan of them, but Dimmu Borgir is a good example of this. Regardless, metal was definitely born of the blues.

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I know, but it really pisses them off. That's what I'm aiming for.

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ah i got ya

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Yeah, well basicly metal and stuff are originally from negro-spirituals.
I mean if you go waaay back, the list is endless. But if we go a little further to metal genres, they have different roots, but in the end it all comes down to the same thing.

Personally I hate genre-zation. I mean, metal is metal, who really gives a shit is it black or death or speed or trash or doom or hair or goth or alternative or industrial or whatever.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be genres at all, but it just pisses me off so friggin much when people nag about genres... Ease up! I mean, there should be different genres, for example making a difference between satanic black and gospel metal, but I think the system should be more loose.

This is also a problem for some bands, for example Children Of bodom thought that is is outrageous to call them a black metal band (they didn't say why...) Some bands are chained for this genre thing, so they can't do whatever music they want to, 'cause it wouldn't belong to a certain familiar genre and the band would definately loose reputation and status. But I don't think anything could be done for this matter, it's just the way it is.

Sorry, little bit off topic here, feel free to disagree...

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Uriah Heep, who've been called the first ever metal band, started by playing blues. As did Diamond Head at least 10 years before they evolved into metal.

most progressive bands (like Dream Theater) still have blues/jazz influence in their music.

Chris, as much as I do like you...

Man, you must be a retarded wench not to have thought of it! All kidding aside, though... Most genres of music would not exist if not for another.

For instance, if not for blues, Hip Hop would not have existed. Many blacks played blues as a form of expression, and when blues became funk in the early 70s, it also morphed into rap and hip hop.

I could go on explaining every genre, but its pointless considering I've made my point.

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I see your point, and I agree with you that metal is metal; but bands are divided into genres for a reason. If you were a fan of what we call Death Metal, but hated the Black Metal style, what they stood for, etc., would you want to have to listen to that band to find out if you liked them? No.

There are subgenres for a reason: because half of the crap that is out there that is called 'metal' probably doesn't qualify as more than noise; i.e. Grind. Excuse me if this is a little scrappy, or not making much sense. I played golf today, and I'm more than a bit tired. So enough typing.

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Well, my main point was that metal evolved directly from blues. Rap and hip hop didn't. Actually, hip hop and rap both morphed out of 70's funk, as you said, but 70's funk did not come from blues. 70's funk morphed from Soul music, which evolved from Gospel independently from blues. So basically, if this were a family tree, it would look like this-




|-------Metal
|--Blues|
Gospel--| |--Rock n' Roll
|
|--Soul (eventually grows into funk, hip-hop, modern day R&B, etc.)



Now, obviously Rock n' Roll came a lot earlier than Metal, but older Metal, at least bands like Sabbath, Zep, Uriah Heap (good mention, BlackRoseImmortal), were based more in Blues than the rock that evolved out of it.

I'd also like to stress that what we call R&B today really has nothing to do with real Rhythm and Blues, and instead seems a distinct offshoot of Soul.

Unfortunately, unlike animals, music can evolve out of two other distinct forms of music, as is evidenced by certain folk-based metal bands, classical-based metal bands, and jazz-based metal bands.

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errr... Chris, your tree looks a bit on the retarded side. I agree with what you're saying though.

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i do agree that most metal at one point or another evolved out of blues.. however some good points are made. one being that not all of it still comes from blues but does come from other older genres. alot of bands (some power and symphonic or prog metal for example) will incorporate classical elements. however alot of doom/death/goth/straight metal stick with alot of founding "sabbath" elements. i mean lets face it, stuff like cathedral, type o, st vitus etc is blues made really heavy, most riffs are blues based, and most leads are still pulled from the pentatonic and blues scales.

still there are other bands and genres that incorporate jazz progressions into their music. opeth has a little in there but they mix it with blues. i could swear some grind had jazz elements as does some black, just cause it sounds like they are masturbating with their instruments doesn't mean its not a jazz run played really distorted. the japanese band sigh for example used alot of jazz elements in their sound. so while i think what was said is rather sound. alot of the offshoots of traditional metal have begun incorporating other styles in their music. i mean i LOVE the blues and i LOVE doom, but there is only so much that can be done in the pentatonic and blues scales

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I never really thought about it. Metal came from rock which came from blues. I knew it! I knew I had some black roots!

Lordy Lordy, free at last, free at last! Good God O' Mighty I'm free at last!

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Haha, thats why varg stopped making black metal. He said "black metal evolved from black people, so i'm going to make european synth music"

I haven't even thought about metal's roots in blues, because i just "knew" (if that makes any sense)

Well I have heard this argument made before, and one point that always seems to come up is that metal is so very different. I think it should be noticed that metal only really took minor pentatonic soloing from the blues. I didn't hear any Blues musicians tuning to Eb and Drop-D, two-hand tapping, use of double bass etc.
Also metal and blues vary greatly in lyrical topics and culture. Most blues (and a lot of classic rock) is almost exclusively about sex and relationships. Though some metal bands sing about those topics metal really did away with most all black culture in the music.
And we shouldn't need to mention metal's classical influences. I think that even though metal has some of its roots in bands that played blues-rock, much more of it has come from the imagination's of it innovator’s.



EDIT: To sum up, my main point is that metal isn't a DIRECT descendant (sp?) of the blues as it has more influences than the rock that came before it.

Please be sure that your not misunderstanding me and think I mean all. I said almost and alot because I wanted what I said to be interrpruted the way I meant it.

I really don't see much of a connection with metal lyrics and blues lyrics. Can you site a few examples?

Sabbath sang quite a bit about relationships, albeit from a cynical and alienated point of view (Paranoid, Iron Man, Sweet Leaf ).

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I dont see a relationship between blues lyrics and death metal lyrics.

Also, Dimebag. I'd say he had a huge blues influence.

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Well good for Sabbath, but how many blues songs do you know of that talk about nuclear war, space, nihilism, anti-christian etc etc.

I didn't hear any metal musicians tuning to Eb and Drop D, using two-hand tapping or double bass drumming during the beginning of metal either, and that's what we are talking about, which pretty much renders your argument irrelevant.



Lyrics have nothing to do with it. Generally speaking, lyrics don't transcend while music evolves. Beside that, the lyrics in early metal were basically the same as those of blues.



Early metal bands had either very little or no classical influence, and that's our main focus. I think you totally missed the point of the discussion, which is focused around metal's beginnings. You are talking about metal today, which has very little left to do with blues. Early metal, however, was based largely on blues directly, blues chord formations, blues riffs, blues scales in solos. All you need to do is pick up any old Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin album, it's blatantly blues based. Metal at that point was pretty much blues on steroids. That's the main focus of the discussion. Metal back then, not now.

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you disgust me. you have no understanding of me or people like me. I have no spiritual connection with black metal. I simply like keyboards and melodic guitar... black metal happens to supply plenty of both, considering it isnt "raw" of which i have no interest in, but thats just me. I am in NO WAY SATANIC. I dont care for the band's religious beliefs. some people listen to black metal becuase it supports their overexaggerated satanic views. thats not me. actually i have come across few black metal bands who really portray satanism. some people listen to it because it is the only way they have found to create a diversity to themselves. You are trying to put everyone into that group and it pisses me off. Im talking about your "therefore" part.

:EDIT(ed): out half of the retaliation-bitching.

ill probably delete half of this tomarrow, thats just how i am, but right now, im drunk and i feel liberated. so fuck you, stereotypical dickhead

Stevie Ray tuned to Eb. Albert King tuned to some weird-ass open tuning that's around C#.

Blues music was often written as a way to express anger and sadness, caused by oppression, etc. A lot of metal has the same lyrical bent, though the sheer variety in metal lyrics (from Iron Maiden's epic storytelling to Pantera's emotional tissue to Deicide's 'I really, really, really don't like God,' to Nevermore's epistemological philosophizing) renders that point idiotic.

Two-hand tapping and double bass are not inherent to metal, and both were invented by jazz players.

Until the 80's - please note: over a decade after metal was first played - almost everything you say makes metal so distinct from the blues that it has no major mark of it, wasn't a part of it, and still isn't a necessary or integral part of a lot of metal. You can make metal without tuning to Eb, two-hand tapping, blast beats, etc. You can probably make blues with all of that. You're focused on superficialities when we're discussing deep, underlying connections. And you seem to know virtually nothing about classic rock or blues. Or what people mean by 'evolved.'

I decided to ressurect this thread rather than startinga new topic..
Anyway, I heard that Rock and Roll came from Rockabilly ( faster and heavier version of "honky tonk").

Undoubtedly, a lot of blues influenced Rock and Roll later on, but I agree with my statement above.

Both Honky Tonk and Rockabilly (which are essentially the same thing, about as similar as thrash metal and early death metal in metal terms) are variations of Rock and Roll. Rock and Roll came directly from Blues, which, in turn, came from Gospel music. Metal becomes somewhat trickier than that, because although it came a long time after Rock and Roll, all the similarities it shares with rock are similarities it also shares with Blues. Considering that the two biggest early metal bands started out playing the blues tells me that metal evolved directly from blues with no Rock in the middle at all. Sorry to sort of switch gears here, I'm sure you'd like to try to stay with Rock stuff right now, but this seems somewhat relevant to me.

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Well technically what I said was 100% correct, however it's only in name. Buddy Holly was actually first credited with the title "rock and roll". (Also worthy of mention are Hank Williams and Buddy Holly)

When was blues actually originate? Honky-tonk has it's origins in the late 40's early 50's, but I don't know in what time frame blues was predominant.

Edit: Ooh Chris, you're one away from post-whoredom!

this thread is a whole bunch of over analyzation

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Not really, I like this thread. Don't you find it interesting analysing and discussing the roots of your favourite music?

yeahhhhhhhhhh


idk, all music comes from each other. i dont really see the point in overanalzying, especially if you loathe the music it comes from. for example, i cant stand mississippi john hurt but i do love sufffocation

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Well I don't particularly enjoy rockabilly, but I enjoy discussing how it has influenced rock n' roll and in turn metal. It's nice to speculate on such things, and draw your own conclusions.

But I see your point though Tranny.

It's a joke, but overreact as you will.

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Deep Purple and early Scorpions with Uli Jon Roth bro. Blackmore and Roth invented Yngwie...

(Van Halen and Randy Rhodes also classically trained. After Roth's prime, but definitely more influential on metal)

I listen to Deep Purple and Rainbow and it's mostly blues-influenced. Van Halen don't really count as an early metal band, and even if they did, they were primarily blues based as well. What I've heard of the Scorpions early material is limited, but appears to retain more blues elements than classical from what I have heard. Perhaps you are right there are a couple of bands that showed classical influences stronger than I had mentioned, but I still feel I'm right based on two things- #1. almost all early metal bands were entirely or largely based on blues, #2. even those bands that did have classical or other influences stronger than I gave them credit for having were still more influenced by blues than anything else.

I will admit I probably downplayed classical influences a tad bit, but considering how slight classical's influence was on early metal, I can't really say I'm embarassed by that failure.

I love this thread.

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i know its old but i cannot let this go. the pure stupidity of this statement is unfathomable. anyone who makes a desicion on a band without listening to them first is completely retarded. they share the same space in my list of idiots as the people who like music because its "cool". people who listen to metal because its evil should realise very few people like the taste of bats, and most of those dont actually eat them raw. just like hip hop fans (in the uk at least) will hardly ever "pop a cap" in my arse no matter how much i " 'trude on thier hood". people who decide which metal bands they like based on anything other than the music they make are usually known as nu-metalers.

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this just occured to me

wouldnt you be horribly dissapointed if chris rezendes' name wasnt really chris rezendes?

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Like what, for example? I know I wouldn't be disappointed if my name was Chris Awesome. This way, when I eventually get my doctorate in like 100 years, I would be Dr. Awesome. This would kick infinite ass and would finally be a name that truly represents who I am. Chris Rezendes tells you absolutely nothing about me, but hot damn, Dr. fucking Awesome is one badass dude and you know this from the name alone.

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ahah no

dr. awesome


lame

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Regarding the Scorps, you have to find the old old 70's stuff and specifically songs that Uli Jon Roth wrote. They are radically different from other Scorpions material. Roth is a sick combination of Hendrix and Vivaldi. He still records but it's mostly straight up classical these days. As far as Van Halen goes, I'm not suggesting they're metal, but he was the first mainstream guitarist who truly owned his guitar and his influence on metal guitar players is huge. He mixed everything together so it's difficult to peg any of his solos as being a specifically blues or classical. Blackmore rarely did classical stuff, but what little he did had a big influence on a young egomaniacal punk named Yngwie as he has stated in several interviews. As far as song structures go, I would argue that death/speed metal is straight up classical for the most part. Odd time signatures, overtures, interludes, complicated rhythm patterns, varying tempos, changing moods, etc...

(Check out Sails of Charon by the Scorpions, I think you'll want to learn how to play it.)

****Wow, 50th post, I'm a metalhead. Maybe someone could flame me on this post anyway just for old times sake...

I was aware you were referring to the old, old 70's Scorpions, which I haven't heard much of, I based my opinion on what I have heard. When you referred to Van Halen, I wasn't looking at Eddie specifically, I was looking at the band on a whole, the large majority of the rhythm is blues based, and the solos, as you said, are mixed, but do retain significant blues interest.

As far as death and thrash go, neither came to be during the timeframe this thread is intended to discuss. We are staying with the roots of metal, late 60's to early-mid 70's. Thrash didn't come to be until, at the very earliest, 1980, and didn't diversity until the mid 80's. Death didn't come to be until the mid 80's and didn't diversify until the early 90's. Both miss the target by a wide margin.

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Fair enough, but you probably are downplaying it a tad as you said. I know music buffs like to claim Blue Cheer as the first metal band, but the rest of the world would probably say "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida" by by Iron Butterfly is the first widely known metal song and that is definitely a classically structured song if there ever was one. I found a pretty interesting page with a brief synopsis of the evolution of metal as well as other genres... http://www.silver-dragon-records.co...sic_history.htm

Late 60's early 70's? Honky-tonk and Rockabilly have their origins in the late 40's early 50's, but I don't know in what time frame blues was predominant.

Buddy Holly was actually first credited with the title "rock and roll". (Also worthy of mention are Hank Williams and Johnny Horton)

These are the very early origins of Rock n' Roll. Undoubtedly blues influenced a lot of rock and roll bands in 60s/70s, but the first Rock n' Roll was not inspired by nor based on blues.

I would credit Blue Cheer to be the first heavy metal. I mean, the riffs where way ahead of their time, solos where fucking crazy!

( I posted thefirst part again as Chris didn't respond to the original post)

everyone knows steppenwolf was the first metal band

"get out on the highway heavy metal thunder"
although I do belive that was the first time the term was heard/used
(didnt read this thread dont know if thats been said)

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Yeah, both of them. The term heavy metal was based on Steppenwolf and Iron Butterfly's album "Heavy" according to urban legend.

I'm retracting my statement that Van Halen wasn't metal. Public conciousness has long since downgraded all of these bands to "Hard Rock" because of the stigma attached to heavy metal, but if you're talking historically and referring to all these old ass hard rock bands as metal, then Van Halen is without a doubt metal...

Late 60's to early-mid 70's is the timeframe we are focusing on, yes. Rockabilly and Honky Tonk are not the focus, the beginnings of metal is, which would be late 60's to early-mid 70's.

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Yes, but Honky tonk and Rockabily formed the basis of Rock n' Roll, which in turn
formed the basis of metal.

We're discussing the roots from which metal stems from, so it still is useful to look at Rockabilly and Honky tonk.

Yo, Dr. Awesome Rezendezizzle, congratulations on achieving post-whore status... And yes, old Bathory does rule, although I'm not sure why either.

It is really obvious that prectically all of american music is blues bassed becuase blues was the first fashionable music in the states (The church had music too...but that doesn't count, wait....blues came from gospel...dammit I was wrong) Anyway I find European music to be much less blues orientated. It seems to follow more of a classical approach. Maybe it's just me but bands like The Haunted or In Flames don't seem very bluesy.

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That's probably because early blues is mostly about lyrics rather than guitars.. Early blues didn't even use drumming or bass, and it was solely guitar and vocal. So I'd say that rock/rhythm & blues was basically the first to have what is fundamentally a "4 piece group."

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Blizzard Beast: The blues has been around for ages, certainly pre-20th Century.

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Yeah but pre 20th century blues was more gospel and related forms of music, not the blues that is generally regarded as popular.

What I'm saying is that the first Rock n' Roll stemmed from Rockabilly and Honky Tonk bands, and as Rock n' Roll evovled of course some bands took influence from blues styles.

Edit: So when discussing the roots of metal, it's also important to note the Rockabily and Honky Tonk influence. Although meagre, it is there.

Well, firstly, I disagree that either Honky Tonk or Rockabilly are that different from each other, and I also disagree that either of them are independent of rock and roll.

Secondly, I disagree that metal stems from rock and roll. I believe it stems directly from the blues, for several reasons. First off, every quality that metal shares with rock it also shared with blues. The opposite can not be said. Secondly, the two most prominent of the early heavy metal bands both started out playing blues.

Rock and roll is given too much credit in the involvement of early heavy metal in my opinion.

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what it comes down to is, u should like what u like cause u like it, not just because its thrash or nu or death or... and i hate to say it... rap... but i understand what every1 on this forum is saying

on a side note every1 is influenced by everything and everything mixes,

examples:

the scratch on guitar strings sometimes sounds like the scratching thing rapers do on the records,

rammstein have a bite of techno influence,

slayer and metallica etc.. tuned down to like, Ab on theyr new albums cause some1 else did it first (steve vai etc...)