if you have a pattern like this :

E --------------------------------------
B --------------------------------------
G --------------------------------------
D --------------------------------------
A -----------------9-10-12-------------
E -----9-10-12-------------------------

the picking pattern on the Low E string is down-up-down. the question is, is it ok to downstroke 9 on the A string or should it be upstroked? does it make a difference when you are trying to build your speed?

Alternate picking's about economy, so I'd say it would be best to downpick the first note on the A there. At least that's how I do it. I'm not exactly the be-all, end-all expert on these things, though.

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upstroke the 9 at the A string. well It would effect my speed because i would be going
Down up down down up instead of down up down up down up. Its easier for me to go up and down instead of a pattern

Upstroke it dude. Don't donwstroke, that's a super bad habit, strictly up/down/up/down regardless of string changes.

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You can get some mad speed by doing something like this
e--------------------------------------------------------13-15-17-
b---------------------------------------------13-15-17------------
g-----------------------------------12-14-16----------------------
d-------------------------12-14-15--------------------------------
a----------------12-14-15-----------------------------------------
e------12-13-15---------------------------------------------------
picking-d--u--d--d---u--d-d--u---d--d--u--d--d--u--d---d--u---d--
I believe this is called speed picking.

So, yeah, I think its okay.

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the thing is i've been doing my picking like that for almost 2 years now, so it has become a habit when i cross strings my picking pattern changes. now it seems like i cant follow the strict down up down up picking because im so use to picking in whichever direction the next string is. any suggestions?

CC's example is more or less how I play. If I should really be playing with strict alternate picking ... I've got a lot of solos to break down and relearn.

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I've always done it duddud just because it makes more sense to me and it gives me a slightly better feel for mini sweeps. Don't bother switching to fit the norm, no matter what it is (unless it truely makes sense and you'll benefit). For example, I play with my fingers on the pickguard, but what the hell do I care if Zakk Wylde or someone plays with'em tucked in. Plenty of people do different things.

Just play as you feel comfortable.

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thats how i do it, if it did it the other way i actually lose speed

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if you are trying to gain speed technique, i recommend a strict up-down movement. if you are just trying to play that one single lick as fast as possible, do it the other way.

I would down pick it cause when my rught hand moves down to switch strings i can pick that note quick. I dont know how to explain it but i would lose speed if i tried to up pick it

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well say i play like that for everything i play when i switch strings, would that have a long term effect on the speeds i can reach or will it be the same?

If you've been doing it that way for 2 years, i'd suggest keeping that method. It's obviously worked for you for this long, so it can't really be that bad. Personally i think you should make it flow as easily as possible, doing a duddud pattern sounds best to me if you're reaching high speeds.

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This is the best way to play it if you want to play it the fastest you possibly can. This is called economy picking and is so named because it reduces the amount of movement that your picking hand has to make. Effectively, you are performing a two string sweep each time you move up or down a string. You wouldn't alternate pick a sweeped arpeggio so there is no need to alternate pick the example you gave.

If you think about it, it makes sense to pick this way as if you were to upstroke the A string then your pick has to pass the string before you pick it - you might as well pick it on the original downward passing of the string. This is why economy picking is much faster than strict alternate picking.

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Personally, I prefer strict d - u - d - u picking all the time, unless I'm doing sweeps. Of course, if you know you're playing just 3 notes per string, then economy picking (dud dud) is a good idea, but I feel that somewhat limits your options. When you do dudududud picking, you can play 1, 2, 3 or 4 notes per string, and you won't have to worry about your picking. Of course, the smart idea would be to learn both techniques. Strict dudududu for miscellaneous playing (something that's not a pure ascending or descending run), and economy picking for the 3 noter per string speed triplets.

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This is exactly right. It's called economy picking, or cross-picking, because it is a cross between sweeping and alternate. It's a more advanced technique, but it will build your speed up tremendously. I had a teacher at Berklee named Joe Stump who would burn up sextuplets off the metronome, and that's the only way to do it.

i see thanks guys!

Word.
I think I do a combination of both economy and alternate.

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When ever I do full runs and scales at fast speeds, I always use alternate picking because it's more convienient to me, but whenever I do some kind of constant triplet I constantly downstroke all notes when switching strings.

indeed thanks. ive been trying to play the breakdown of bruce dickinson's "king in crimson" for ages completely downpicking. it was starting to work to, because if i did dudududud or whatever it sounded crap.

kthxbi

Me too.

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theres a guy called micheal angelo batio who calls
dududu alternate picking
and duddud alternative picking

as far as speed goes, he can do both of these so fast its unbelieveable.
if you havent heard of him, go to his website, its metal method or something, and theres a video of him doing speed kills.

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i've seen that vid
its nuckin futs!

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Give me the link....

If you downstroke that you will be "Economy Picking"(A method of picking based upon the least amount of movement you have to do) and an upstroke would be "Alternate Picking". As far as the speed thing goes I would alternate pick.It just seems to work for me. Good Luck

It's impossible to play that example faster using alternate picking. Physically and geometrically impossible. No matter how fast you play it using alternate picking, it will always be faster if economy picking is employed.

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his site is www.metalmethod.com
check out the preview for speed kills instructional dvd

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HOLY FUCK!

Man, why the hell does he even fret overhand, he plays all of this so flawlessly.

its so he can look cool.

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Michael Angelo Batio is pretty amazing. Hes good at showing off.

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yea, i enjoy the antics of john petrucci when it comes to picking style. He is a strict alternate picker, he does "sweeps" or in his case arpeggios in strict alternate picking just as fast as most people sweep them, except it sounds much cooler, more of a defined sound ofr each note struck. fucking amazing if you ask me.

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Marty Friedman also picks his arpeggios - as opposed to sweeping them. I prefer to sweep them as it gives a smoother, more fluid sound.

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Plus its easier and you can do it faster.

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Very true, CC. I'd be willing to wager that if Friedman or Petrucci applied sweeping to their arpeggios they would be scarily fast - maybe even as fast as Batio.

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Yeah, that would be hella fast.

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too bad i dont have a teacher to learn all that stuff.... i need to get a new one.

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How bout having 2 teachers?

yeah, too bad i dont have the time or money for that.

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i dont think there is a need to economy pick that sequence. this thread actually caught my interest because i never imagined using economy picking on that type of sequence. i CAN see how it might save some time to start with a downstroke on the A string considering only distance traveled....but i pick much faster when i just move d/u/d/u/d/u/d/ rather than moving d/u/d/d/u/d/u/d/d/u. making my hand do two consecutive downstrokes just seems to waste so much energy, and it messes with the flow of my picking hand. of course i DO use economy picking when applying it to arpreggios, because, like alternate picking a sequence of notes you tabbed out, it gives ONE unform hand movement for the entire sequence. i dont know if this makes sense to anyone. please post comments about my reply
thanks.

I guarantee that you are only picking faster by using alternate picking because you are not yet fluent at economy picking. You say "two consecutive downstrokes" but that is not correct - it is actually one downstroke in the form of a 2-string sweep. Practise and practise until you don't even realise that you are using economy picking, then compare the two styles.

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i see....so i was definately approaching this with the wrong frame of mind. looks like a have a lot of work to do with economy picking heh. one question though when you guys talk about playing that piece faster, how fast exactly are we talking? in bpm? even using alternte picking something like that is easy to play at 190+. please share.....

Hello there... i absolutely agree with you blood. The advantage of playing alternate picking is the permanent equal movement of your hand (d/u/d/u/d/u etc...). If you want an example then try to get something from Chris Impellitteri and you'll see. On his video "speed soloing" he plays exactly the same figure in a speed that you've never seen before, believe me. And it's only possible with this picking technique.

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Yes I should try this, i haven't REALLY attempted using the dudduddu economy method yet.

i think my main question about economy picking that sequence is, "how much faster will this allow me to play?"
by the way, what you said hot spicy was what i was TRYING to say, i just couldnt get it out.

Well, in terms of bpm I don't know exactly, but over the course of, say, playing up and down the six strings at 3 notes per string, it does add up. As a conservative guess, I'd say it'll add another 10-20 bpm to your picking speed.

The main difference that I notice (other than speed) is that progressing up or down the strings using economy picking sounds much more fluid than using alternate picking. Kind of like how sweep picking is more fluid than attempting to pick each note of the arpeggio. Compare Jason Becker to Marty Friedman: Becker sounds more fluid than Friedman, who tends to be a little more mechanical in his styling due to picking arpeggios that are 'supposed' to be swept. Don't get me wrong, Marty is still damn fast, but Becker has the edge for me.

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I feel like a moron now, I just tried this, and I realized that that's actually what I DO most of the time. You see, there are a couple times when I skip the second downsroke because it doesn't feel necessary, so most of the time I am economy picking I'll do the same for about four strings in a scale and the when I do the final couple I just do the quicker thing and go back to normal alternate. One thing I've realized about guitar in the past few months is to play things fastest, you have to find a way that is equally as comfortable for you(yet not always at first) and a way that is more efficient in playing things, in speaking of chord voicings and picking methods.

exactly

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Most of the time I use 4 note per string scales anyway (such as the half-whole and whole-half scales). Of course, strict alternate picking is the fastest method of playing these scales when you run through them.

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I just run through all 6 of the strings.

The only 2 types of scales i can play all across the neck without any thought are pentatonic and the major scales, which are useful in improv but I still wish I had a full chart of all the harmonic/melodic minor scales.

www.looknohands.com

Fill your boots.

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I use a chromatic scale to get warmed up you'gilly

|-----------------------------------------3-4-5-6-
|---------------------------------3-4-5-6---------
|-------------------------3-4-5-6-----------------
|-----------------3-4-5-6-------------------------
|---------3-4-5-6---------------------------------
|-3-4-5-6-----------------------------------------

|7-6-5-4-------------------------------------------
|--------7-6-5-4-----------------------------------
|-----------------7-6-5-4--------------------------
|-------------------------7-6-5-4------------------
|---------------------------------7-6-5-4----------
|------------------------------------------7-6-5-4-