In what order are you making songs? This is the one I use alot:

Riff 1
Riff 2
Bass part
Solo/Riff 2
Riff 3

intro
riff 1
riff 2
-------------mirror maybe

first i do the guitars, then i write lyrics to them, then i record the drums, then vocals, then mix

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my structure is probly my weakest point at the moment mine usually look like

intro
verse
chorus
verse
interlude/solo
chorus
outtro

it's lame almost new metallish.. i'm workin on it now. doesn't help that in my band i'm the only one that ever writes shit

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Lately, I have been just playing and recording riffs as they come to mind, and then sitting back and listening to the whole thing later. Then I think about how I might move things around to make the song flow better. This is easier for me than planning a song out before I write anything.

Then again, I'm pretty new to songwriting, so what do I know. I'd like to know if other people use unorthodox songwriting techniques.

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riff 1
riff 2
riff 1
riff 3 (sometimes)
riff 2
done after 50 seconds (an average)

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Riff 1 - main
Riff 2 - main 2
Riff 3 - chorus
Riff 1 - main
Riff 3 - chorus
Riff 2 - main 2
Riff 3 - chorus
Riff 4 - interlude...whatever
Riff 3 - chorus
Riff 1 - main

Depends though sometimes will be like 1-5 then 3, 4 ,2, 1

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A song with interesting structure is so hard. Here's wut I did last time:

Intro
Part 1
Part 2
Chorus
Part 3
Chorus
Bridge
Outro

All the parts are written in this order, generally:

Guitar 1
Guitar 2
Bass
Drums
Lyrics

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The last actual song I wrote went:

"Song Structure

-Clean Intro
-Distortion Intro
-Verse Intro (Riff 2)
-Verse (Riff 3)
-Verse Intro (Riff 2)
-Breakdown I
-Break-In (Mid Chorus Riff)
-Chorus
-Mid Chorus Riff
-Breakdown II
-Kick Back In (Riff 4)
-Chorus
-Mid Chorus Riff
-Chorus
-Acoustic Outro"

And it was a roughly 12 minute track. Thats why its really in depth kinda thing.

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I dont plan it out, just play and piece it together the way sounds best.

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Same here, basically I change and improv everything that I come up with constantly. Which also means I don't have any real "songs" just a shit ton of riffs / licks that can be pieced together in many different ways.

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I do that too. But generally, that's how it goes with me. A song is never truly finished.

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i dont like awhole lot of repitition in my songs

Yeah. I don't like to stick to one song writing structure. I put in whatever the song calls for.

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One thing that i really dont like about COB is they alwasy use the same fuckign wong structure, i can practicly predict the song.

Thats probably their only flaw

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Umm id have to say
Riff 1
Riff 2
Riff 3
Riff 4
Riff 5
Breakdown
Acoustic/SOft mellow part
Thrash riff
Maybe solo here
then the ending varies alot

Most of my songs are like 10+ minutes long

I am trying a new style of writing songs versus the old way where I just had an intro (which was the chorus riff played alone while drums and bass entered) then the chorus and verse played intrumentally once, then the chorus and verse with lyrics played 3 times. Totally nu-metal. They weren't even good riffs and I am not good enough to solo.

Now I just try to write songs and try as hard as I can not to repeat riffs. I come up with guitar and drum riffs, then I see what matches with what. I write lyrics seprately.

So far I have not completed a song (too lazy), but I plan to put riffs in order and see how certain lyrics fit.

I don't feel the need to add bass anymore (seen a lot of great bands without 'em, and all the bassists I know have problems/things about them that make me not want to be in a band with them).

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I usually start with the intro and then i go recordin one riff, if i see, then needs a sloxw part, i record it, then the solo or wathever and i finish the song about 2:30.

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Same here, but I figured I'd post mine.

I am writing more Doom now, so acoustic parts just seem to come out of nowhere.

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I agree with Necro Butcher, I don't like songs that have a lot of repetition in them. The most I'd probably repeat a riff would be twice and if I could (somehow!) come up with a shit-load of high quality riffs, I'd just go from riff to riff with no repetition.

I really like the structure to Nile's Chapter For Transforming Into a Snake - it starts off with that great riff, then goes off into a whole set of meanderings and riff variations. Then it returns to the original riff in a blaze of glory!

I'd say that if you stick to one main structure then you are going to get pretty boring, pretty quickly. Why do many of us not find modern pop interesting? Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus/Repeat Chorus. That's why!

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yeah repitition is whats killing my music at the moment. i fall into that loop and the whole song just seesaws back and forth between two parts and then i feel like i'm playing nu-metal im working on correcting that though.

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Yeah repetition relaly blows UNLESS the part is rediculously good, and Acoustic parts are ALWAYs essential, im going to the studio this saturday to record the acoustic parts of my songs and to finish my bands Full length, its mostly the stuff we wrote earlier, but we cant write any music now, as our other guitarist has been in budapest for the last 3 months...Opeth and some other bands that do repititon are ok with me, because the repition is usually done differently, or altered in some way, or the part just fucking owns.

Normally I'll go in to writing after I come up with some sort of riff or note progression. Alot of the time I'll have three or four riffs before the verse. Then sometimes it'll go verse - bridge - verse - bridge - chorus - brige before interlude/solo stuff. The verses will all normally be different, either based on the same idea, a second guitar part or something different. Any repition in the bridges or in the interlude are probably because I think it's a cool fucking riff and want to be able to play it again. Then after interlude solo stuff, a whole new torrent of riffs and demented "melodies" and shit, I'll go into a bunch of short verse, chorus, verse, verse, chorus, bridge and keep everything chaotic without repeating too much. Then finish it off with an intro reprise based on the same idea or "harmonized" and maybe have a solo in there somewhere. That's just one example out of others (others being instrumental and going back to the same theme or more simple structure).

I write all kinds of weird patterns, I don't follow a pattern, nor would I encourage others to. Here's a sample taken from the last song I wrote-

Riff 1
Riff 2
Riff 3
Riff 2
Fill 1
Riff 4
Riff 5
Fill 2
Riff 6
Fill 3
Rhythm Figure 1
Riff 7
Riff 8 (under solo)
Riff 9 (under solo)
Riff 8 (under solo)
Riff 9 (under solo)
Riff 6
Riff 4
Riff 10
Riff 3
Riff 1
Riff 2
Kill the song with Fill 2

I love my work, even though I'd never bother trying to get it recorded. Here's another sample from a different song just to show how patternless I am. The only pattern I follow is that I always have a couple riffs that get repeated in the song eventually.

Riff 1
Riff 1a
Riff 2
Riff 3
Rhythm Figure 1
Riff 4
Riff 5
Riff 6a
Riff 6b
Riff 1a
Riff 1b
Riff 2
Riff 3
Outro riff just once to kill the song

Write lots of riffs, lots and lots of riffs, sprinkle in some slow rhythm figures as well. Use fills to transition during certain parts, especially from rhythm figures to riffs or vice versa. Fills also are nice ways to kill songs.

I like playing a riff to end the song but only playing half way through and stopping it abruptly to "kill" the song

Those structures are almost Suffocation-like.

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My usual patterns for a tune goes like:
Intro/Riff#1.
Riff#2.
Chorus/bridge
Riff#2.
Chorus.
Solo Riff..
Chorus..
Riff#3.
Chorus..

End..
I only have a few tunes where the Chorus is repeated so often, usually I try to limit them to about 3 times..

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I also like throwing in an odd number of repeats in the riffs...
i.e. Riff 1 x 5, Riff 2 x 7, Riff 1 x 2, Riff 3 x 3

Just came up with a new song today:
Intro - Fig. 1 x 3, Fig. 1a x 3, Fig. 2 x 5
Fill 1 x 1
Chorus - Fig. 3 x 1
Fill 2 x 2
Verse - Fig 4 x 1
Bridge - Fig. 2 x 5, Fig. 5 x 5
Chorus - Fig. 3 x 1
Fig. 1 x 1 (1st bar x 1)
Verse - Fig. 4a x 2
Interlude - Fig. 6 x 1, Fig. 7 x 1
Verse - Fig. 4a x 1, Fig. 4 x 1
Fig. 2 x 5
Chorus - Fig. 3 x 1
Fig 7 x 1
Solo Rythym - Fig. 8 x 3
Outro - Gtr. 1 - Fig. 7 till fade
Gtr. 2 - Fig. 1 till fade

i never plan a structure when trying to write something, but it usually turns out like:

intro (maybe, and its usually pretty mellow)
verse, approximately 3x
chorus
verse a couple times
interlude/short solo
and then it usually just ends on a verse

I also like introducing themes that have allready been played over top of new themes or something. Like taking a part meant for a different progression and putting it over a different one. Also, changing the drum beat while everything else stays the same just kicks ass.

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I like it when bands sometimes just stop a riff at unexpected places and also when they play riffs an odd number of times. Musically people expect to hear a riff 2, 4 or 8 times so it's quite refreshing when they are played 3 or 5 times. I think Nile's Destruction Of The Temple Of The Enemies Of Ra is a good example of this - all of the riffs (except for the outro) are played 3 times. It just adds a bit of tension.

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hell yeah \m/

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Dude, and I'm sure you already know this, I don't think any bands do that more than Suffocation and Morbid Angel. It makes it that much harder to tab their songs. Not only do both of those things you said, both bands do something else very odd, it's gonna be hard to explain I think-

1. Start playing a riff
2. About 1 quarter (or 3 quarters, but never halfway) through the riff, play a small sample of the figure that comes after the riff
3. Very quickly kill the rhythm figure and go back to the riff
4. Go back to the riff for a while and then start the rhythm figure for real.

Here's an example, from the Suffocation song "Prelude to Repulsion"-


The riff starts innocently enough...
e|--------------------------------|-----------------------------|
B|--------------------------------|-----------------------------|
G|--------------------------------|-----------------------------|
D|--111111---------------333-444--|--111111---------------3--3--|
A|---------222222-----------------|---------222222--------3--3--|
E|----------------333333----------|----------------333333-1--1--|

e|--------------------------------|-----------------|
B|--------------------------------|-----------------|
G|--------------------------------|-----------------|
D|--111111---------------333-444--|--111111---------|
A|---------222222-----------------|---------222222--|
E|----------------333333----------|-----------------|
. . . .

BAM! Part of a rhythm figure!
e|------------------|
B|------------------|
G|------------------|
D|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|
A|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|
E|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--|

Oh shit, back to the damn riff! Son of a bitch!
e|--------------------------------|-----------------------------|
B|--------------------------------|-----------------------------|
G|--------------------------------|-----------------------------|
D|--111111---------------333-444--|--111111---------------3--3--|
A|---------222222-----------------|---------222222--------3--3--|
E|----------------333333----------|----------------333333-1--1--|

e|--------------------------------|-----------------|
B|--------------------------------|-----------------|
G|--------------------------------|-----------------|
D|--111111---------------333-444--|--111111---------|
A|---------222222-----------------|---------222222--|
E|----------------333333----------|-----------------|

And now the rhythm figure, for REAL this time!
e|------------------------------|------------------|---------|---------|
B|------------------------------|------------------|---------|---------|
G|------------------------------|------------------|---------|---------|
D|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--5-4-5--|--4-3-2--|
A|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--5-4-5--|--4-3-2--|
E|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--1-1--3-2-3--|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--|--3-2-3--|--2-1-0--|
. . . . . . . . . .

------
------
--5~--
------
------
------

e|------------------------------|------------------|--------------------|
B|------------------------------|------------------|--------------------|
G|------------------------------|------------------|------3-------------|
D|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--2-3-3-2--2-3-7-6--|
A|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--2-3-1-2--2-3-7-6--|
E|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--1-1--3-2-3--|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--|--0-1---0--0-1-5-4--|
. . . . . . . . . .

e|------------------------------|------------------|---------|---------|
B|------------------------------|------------------|---------|---------|
G|------------------------------|------------------|---------|---------|
D|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--5-4-5--|--4-3-2--|
A|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--5-4-5--|--4-3-2--|
E|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--1-1--3-2-3--|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--|--3-2-3--|--2-1-0--|
. . . . . . . . . .

------
------
--5~--
------
------
------

e|------------------------------|------------------|-----------------|
B|------------------------------|------------------|-----------------|
G|------------------------------|------------------|--2-----------5--|
D|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--2-3-2---2-3-5--|
A|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--3-3--5-4-5--|--3-3-3-3--4-3-4--|--0-3-2---2-3-3--|
E|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--1-1--3-2-3--|--1-1-1-1--2-1-2--|----1-0---0-1----|
. . . . . . . . . .

------ ------ ------
------ ------ ------
--5~-- --6~-- ------
------ ------ ------
------ ------ --4~--
------ ------ ------



I think this odd style of writing is absolutely brilliant as well as original. Not a lot of people do this, but more power to the ones that do. I think Necrophagist might have done that a few times, too, but I can't think of any specific examples so I could be wrong.

As a reply to when you said my song structures resemble those of Suffocation, that's probably subconscious emulation, but my riffs themselves are much more thrash than they are death metal. My rhythm figures are definitely death metal all the way, though. Everything I play slow is heavy and slightly odd, of kilter, like Suffocation or Morbid Angel. Thanks for the compliment, at least that's what I think it is.

Another thing I noticed is that they both use strange chords very liberally throughout their songs. I don't know what these chords are called (they must have a name), so I'll just show them to you-

Morbid Angel uses this kind constantly
e|-----|
B|-----|
G|--9--|
D|-----|
A|--7--|
E|-----|

Suffocation uses this kind a lot
e|-----|
B|-----|
G|-----|
D|--5--|
A|--3--|
E|--3--|

the way i do it is i just jam until i hit a riff i like. then, i think about what that riff would sound best as (intro, verse, chorus, etc.) then, from there i start writing parts. my most common structure (although its always different)

riff 1
quick interlude
riff2 (verse)
riff3 (chorus)
riff4 (variation of riff2, verse)
riff3
breakdown / solo (whichever seems to fit better)
breakdown / solo (if i want to have both)
outro

usually i write a backup riff to the solo, record it, play it back on loop and just fuck around untill i get a solo i like

the 9 and the 7 are the same note on 2 different octave, its rather common but i agree that it sounds badass. the only thing ive ever heard that kind of chord called is "octaves" im hoping u know theory enough to understand what i just said, but if not ill be glad to explain it

I understand the concept of octaves, I just don't know what those chords are called. Thanks anyway.

I know what you mean with the "including a snippet of the next riff" thing and it sure makes tabbing Suffocation very difficult indeed!



That top one is just an octave and I think it is just referred to as an 'E Octave'. Trey has a cool trick where he hammers onto these octaves without picking them, sort of like this:



Rhythmically, you've got to imagine that the top hammers are on the same string as the botom ones and that you are doing a -h7h9- sort of thing. It's a very cool trick.

The bottom one is G/C5 which means that the tonality is C5 but the lowest note just happens to be G. I think! Cryptopsy use this chord shape quite a lot too.

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Kinda reminds me of "Unas Slayer of the Gods".....ahem...anyway...


my song structure is the same as johnmansley's, repeating a riff maybe once or twice if i cant come up with anotha great riff (which is most of the time!)

Just recorded a rough song today...only guitars and drums (done by my guitar teacher so they're not exactly the most DM like drums you'll find, but gd enough for the moment), it all sounds to......i dont no.....whihc i spissing me off cos i need to change it but i dont no what it is i need to change...i'll have to listen to it...

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That is inverted powerchord.

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Well, it is an inverted powerchord in a certain sense but I've never heard or seen that shape have that particualr name applied to it. Mostly, the inverted power chord shape is:

|---|
|---|
|---|
|-3-|
|-5-|
|---|

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hahaha...
I usually write my intro as just the chorus without lyrics, my riff 1, perhaps 2, chorus, solo, maybe riff 3, or go back to riff 1 or 2, then chorus...

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I was just gonna say that. Thanks anyway, Slabbefusk.

I think the proper chord name applied is a D minor

not if its not a D.....

I was refering to that particular example, x75xxx would be an E minor

OK, to clear things up, that particular inverted power chord shape is taken from the following chord shape:

|-6-|
|-3-|
|-3-|
|-3-|
|-5-|
|-6-|

As you can all see, this is just G transposed up by three frets. This makes the x53xxx chord part of an A# chord.

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I guess it depends on the context the chord shape was in.

i just do what ever comes to mind then i try and work with it until its done. i havent finished one song yet.

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Another thing to keep in mind is that you don't want to try and force anything...if you sit down and say, "Allright, this should sound kind of like (band name here)", then you get frustrated and nothing sounds like you want it to. You just have to sit down and "let the metal flow"...you do that and things work out much better...and you just may end up sounding like (band name here), which could be good or bad.

my songs' structure is this:
Riff 1
Riff 2
Riff 3
Riff 4
Riff 5
Riff 6
Riff 7 ...etc

Thus meaning I have never
written a complete song because I start writting
riffs and never repeat them in the song or finish
the song

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