alright, so i realize this is going to get on a lot of people's nerves and might even offend someone, but ive been thinking the past few days and there are two lead players that are extremely self derivative and lacking creativity. chuck schuldiner (BLASPHEMY! but listen to his solos for christs sake) and trey azagoth. im sure there are tons more out there who you guys are sick of hearing the same lick over and over again from, so go ahead and list them

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I DONT KNOW ANY LOL. Kerry Kings writing was dull as FUCK. Hanneman brought the shit imo but lets not start.

Who else...hrmm. Im sure someone will come to mind. I cant think of anyone necessarily bad atm though.

kerry king wasnt that good of a guitarist.. but a good songwriter.
um lemme think.. the guys from six feet under. haha but that doesnt count cause the band sucks.

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ah yes, the guitar player from slayer who does that one solo. you know the one.

BWEEE,BWEEEEE

like angel of death

oh god, i forgot the grandaddy of them all. youre going to crucify me for this

get ready



KARL SANDERS!!!!!!

holy crap he does that one bend at least 5 times an album

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haha ouch.

I don't really dig Hate eternal that much. Eric Rutan has good vocals but he writes some boring ass guitar riffs.

yeah, rutans riffs are a lousy too. he uses that one 3-4-5 chord and thats his gimmick...nobody else can touch it

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All of this is kind of dumb. I agree with these, but (and it's a big but) that is the guitar player's style. It's how they play, so it's no wonder all their shit sounds the same. You could even say Muhommed (spelling??) of Necrophagist's songs are all alike (and they are) he's still good though.

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Yea,


Even COB's alexi laiho's songs all sound the same, sometimes I can't tell which song is which cause he uses alot of the same songwriting techniques, but he's fuckin badass, and I'm not saying his songwriting skills suck either, just monotomous in the fashion of nothing really diverse from each other.

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I hate this thread! Everyone stop bashing my favorite bands!

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Get fucked! Karl has one of the tightest bending techiques in metal. Listen to the end of the solo in Unas for an example of supreme control and vibrato of bends. Let's put it this way, if I had his bending technique I'd crank it out at regular intervals as well.

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everyone-im DEFINITELY not saying these guys suck or are a sham. its just that they all have one or two gimmicks and stick to them. alexi ,too. and muhammed (but i cant ever tell christians from muhammeds anyways)

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Haha, good call! That's more of a testament as to how good a guitarist Christian is, though.

I knew that you weren't ragging on these guitarists and I see what you mean with the "sticking to the same tricks" thing. I believe that Karl varies it enough though, unlike Trey or Kerry who both have stock solos that they churn out in the absence of any genuine creativity.

I've said all along that some of Trey's solos are abhorrent. Don't get me wrong, he's written some of the best solos that I've ever heard (eg, Summoning Redemption) but when he's not inspired you can definitely tell that he's just going through the motions with his whammy bar and wha pedal.

Interesting thread, Sam.

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haha thanks. actually i love the karl bend, its just that it shows up soooooo much. sometimes i do it for fun on my own guitar but man, thats a string breaker if you arent careful

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Every guitarist! They all suck.

Listen to the band Alas...I got their CD on amazon for like $6 brand new and with a poster. Erik's riffs are still distinctly his style, but they are more interesting than those in Hate Eternal.

Erik Rutan are the man.

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im sorry trans, but i have to disagree on karl.

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you didnt even read the thread, did you?

I don't know. I like when a guitarst has something that sticks out or is different about him. Sort of like his finishing move or something.

I don't really think any guitarist is bad personally. I mean to each their own.
Sort of like um Steve Swanson from SFU (I KNOW I KNOW) but think about it people acuse them of being boring and having only a few riffs a song but look at Black Sabbath. They only had a few riffs and whatnot so what is the difference?

I even like those really slow, sludge bands like Winter or Coffins. The songs are like 10 minutes and the riffs and drumms just pound you slow insted of blasting you apart. They let each note ring just so you can absorb each attack. Like this shit is slow like a Mortician without the blast beats played by a turtle after smoking three garbage bags full of weed. I mean SLOW...but I love it. It gives a really creepy feeling.

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Malmsteen. His new album seems to be the same old shite again.

About the SFU guitarist, the riffs are simple and boring, but he's quite good (nice solo's, esp. on the Graveyard Classics). He just doesn't need all his skills for the band.

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actually, i did.

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I h ate the Cannibal Corpse song writing. That has no creativity it's all "fuck her harder harder with a knife, blah blah blah" and then you look at the writers name and his name is webster for crying out loud. He was probably pushing his glasses up on his nose when he was writing that song. It's all "I FOUND HUMAN REMAINS IN A CAN AND IM GOING TO MAKE STEW OUT OF....ew a spider". What a joke

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is that spider thing real? because if it is thats actually really funny

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It`s not all about the lyrics you know.

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and i really meant this to be guitar anyways. i meant song writing as in guitar

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yeah thats what I was thinking aswell.

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chuck schnuldiners rythms always where a tad boring imo. But there of course some exceptions, some COB sounds similar except for the really memorable ones too.

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You're right but look at the name of the topic. "Weak Guitarists/Song Writers". So there ya go

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you ignorant piece of shit. Just because his name is webster doesn't mean anything. Infact he happens to be one of the best bassists in the genre.
You seem to be one of those OMG TEH DEATH MUTL SUXKZ people

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Good thread.

Malmsteen - This faggot pirate needs to realize there is a scale besides harmonic minor. Gayest runs EVER. And his arpeggios suck dick.

Muhammed - *YAWN* Congradulation, you know how to play a minor arpeggio. He does the same shit in EVERY solo. Minor arpeggio, tap, that classical sounding technique where you go:



So unoriginal. I loev shred as much as the next guy, but shit, not when every slo is based around the same fourmula.

Luke Jager - If I need to explain you are gay.

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Everyone here has heard me complain about these guys repeatedly, but I'm sure everyone will agree with me on this one... Suffocation. Those guys fucking SUCK. Every song is the same, it's all "duh-duh-duh DUN-DUN duh-duh DUN duh DUN-DUN-DUN duh doo-doo dap booka-CHINK booka-CHINK" over and over again. Fuck those assholes.

You know who else sucked? Morbid Angel. All they ever did was rip off Suffocation, and since Suffocation sucked, so did Morbid Death Dark Angel. They can go suck a dick.

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Pretty much my thoughts..

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That's funny, the only people i've ever seen type like that any more are the people that think it's still funny to joke about it.

Good songwriting is pretty hard to come by with all the new songs nowadays. They tend to write great moments within a song, but fail to write a good song as a whole.

i agree with both of you, Cannibal Corpse makes some shitty lyrics/song names but the MUSIC element of it kicks major ass

i have this argument with people all the time: message vs. music

im kind of undecided on the whole thing, like, il give just as much respect to Jeff Hanneman for his song writing ability as i will the guys from Necrophagist for their amazing sweep-y-ness






quite true, *cough, Cyptopsy, cough*

EDIT: actually i take that back, i guess its not the whole new album, just Pestilence that Walketh, i like the intro riff and the one that follows it but then it gets kind of boring and unentertaining

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This thread is so full with blasphemy, its worse than the bible

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I know those guys. Fucking talentless shitheads.

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don't forget the talentless guy from Dream Theater.

How about we start appreciating bands and musicians instead of criticizing them?

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Cood call. I fucking love Coffins, Dot[.] and Corrupted, even Eyehategod can be lumped here. They write THE heaviest riffs of all time but still tend to be the same. They fucking kill all and I don't care what any one else says.

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Correct about that one. Btw, that classical technique is just 'using pedal notes'.

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Karl Sanders is one of the best songwriters ever in my opinion, and how the fuck is it possible to say that Chuch and Trey arent creative? Erik Rutan is perhaps not the best song writer, but despite the monotone, Hate eternal fucking rules.

The only one I agree about mentioned in this thread is Trey, which tend have some kind fucked up solos sometimes. He`s still amazing though.

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Yeah, that was what I meant. He is not uncreative. He just has his own strange style.

first of all, in opinion. second of all, like it or not, and even call it "creative" if you want, but there is absolutely no denying the fact that he uses that

WEEEEEEEeuhhhWEEEEuhhWEEEEuhhWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


bend all the time at the end of his solos.

chuck and trey arent creative? they arent. im talking about their solos. and even riffs, chuck rehashed the same ideas over and over and over again. you might like the ideas, just like the comic strip garfield still has some avid fans. but most peopel agree, both garfield and chuck have about 5 ideas


|----------------------|
|----------------------|
|----------15--17-18--| = lasagna
|14-16-17-------------|
|----------------------|
|----------------------|

usurper- i know youre norwegian, so you probably wont get that reference

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I`ve noticed that pattern alot as well, but I still would say they`re ain`t creative, I mean, they where totally ahead of their time. They both have rehashed alot of ideas though, especially chuck, but I still feel he wasn`t doing the exact same thing all the time. As for the karl thingy, fuck off sam

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Jon Schaffer's been relying way too much on his triplets.

Kerry King couldn't write a coherent solo to save his life.

Obituary run into the "that song sounds alot like the last one" problem from time to time.

In Flames as a band don't seem to have a whole lot going on in the creative department. I'm not saying that just because they changed their style either. They just never really did anything that grabbed me enough to want ot really get into them. Alot of the Swedish bands fall into that.

The Haunted also, suck at pretty much everything. Boring riffs, all of which are either boring or repetitive.

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hehe general suckitude does indeed apply to the haunted


siggi - yeah theyre innovative. just saying, their solos arent

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Listen to the "Show No Mercy" and "Haunting the Chaple" albums. They actually used to be able to write really badass solos, but they just got lazy.

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true. like most of 'em.

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Hahahah, so true. He loves that fucking scale. You cant shred using one scale for 20 years and expect it to sound innovative.


My thoughts exactly, I really think all of Kerry's and Jeff's stuff is good, and the late 80's stuff is pretty straightforward, but it is still good. War Ensamble solo fucking kicks ass.


Weak guitarists in my opinion:

Me (So as not to be a hypocrite)

Alexi Laiho - booooring

Opeth guys - booooring)

Jack Owen - Sub-standard as it gets

Hoffman brothers - boring

Chuck Schuldiner (eat it metaltabbers)

Kirk Hammet

James Hetfield

Jeff Young (So Far So Good era Megadeth, all of his soloing results in goofy bends and crappy, sporadic, uinintelligable runs on wound strings)

Hudy and Thrufel of Yattering (if you think the albums are played sloppily and haven't heard/seen their live stuff, you have no IDEA how terrible it is)

Sami Yli-Sirniö (Kreator) - totally unoriginal, every solo equates to 5 seconds of awful, awful shredding, followed by a minute and a half of trills and wah.

Jorg Tritze (Kreator) - Riffs are ok, but solo-wise, just fucking bad.

All black metal guitarists, albeit Ihsahn and Samoth. Even if there are any talents out there, they are still playing black metal!


I see absolutely nothing productive coming from this thread. I can't believe it made it 3 pages.....

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That only makes him worse.

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Slayer are not known as great soloists, theyre not Mustainne and Friedman Or hetfield and Hammett. But Slayer still kicks ass.

Shuldiner was a sloppy soloist and might have been just a tad repetetive, but take any song off of an album like symbolic, compare it to a modern death metal "song", and I want you to tell me chuck's songs didn't make you feel something. I dare you.

so you decide to post in it anyways? you and your being "productive". for fucks sake this is the internet, we're here to talk about metal and get differnet viewpoints on music. get off your high horse "lol @ u guyz, loserz!"

besides, discussion is productive.

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Agreed, this is the first discussion I`ve seen here for a long time where no one has gotten into some gay e-fight.
Oh, I thought you ment their writing in general. well then I kinda agree

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Well, lets see any of you pump out albums like these guitarists have.

They made a name for themselves. They must have something that you like about them or you wouldn't care. If you only heard a few songs from these players, you wouldn't say that they are repetitive, but creative. It's a personal style. They have trademark moves. It's what separates them from the usual players. If it works, don't fix it.

I can tell when something gets boring. I noticed that Slayer has gotten boring after seasons in the abyss. The solo's and songs don't seem as moving as they once were. The earlier stuff is beast though.

Morbid Angel and Trey? You gotta be joking. I mean, the solos really don't do anything for me off of the first two albums (Alter and Blessed) they seem pointless. But trey's song writing on all the albums is decent. They got a tonne of killer songs and catchy tunes. I listen to all their albums still. He was so good that he set the tone for himself.

Chuck? what? you can't follow the progression and growth from album to album? Solos? Is there a problem here? He didn't string them out. they are not long. they do the job and fit in extremely well with his songs. He made his mark and now he's being shit on. Why do you think he wanted to start "control denied"??? he wanted to move on to being more creative and he finally got a permanent band for once.

Do any of you watch sports? Movies? play vids? Boring. The one player always uses the same move every game. Why do the cops come in full force in the end of a movie when everything is already solved? Why is it every single game of warcraft, diablo, and final fantasy is the same damn thing over again? CLICHE! People still use cliches, it's like beating a dead horse or its pouring cats and dogs.

These guys have "skill sets" They are good at what they do and stick with what they know. It's tough to be creative. There's only 12 notes! Every scale and chord progression has been done hundreds of times over. How creative would you be after writing over 50 songs? It's like writers block. sometimes you just can't figure something out but you need to have the solo done by tomorrow in the studio, or come up with something here. Can you make a kick ass solo in one day? What the hell would Iron Maiden do? They've drained the bank on themselves.


Bottom portion

Do any of you even have a decent solo that's creative and wasn't influenced by anyone?

How about 10 solos.

Do any of you have 10 solos that don't use the same skills as the other solos?

Step up to the plate you pansies! I have no solos because I can't solo.

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Pedal notes?

Yea, the guitarist just mimes, and the drummer plays some notes with the pedals on his drum kit- theres a secret little switch to change the pedals from "hit things" to "pedal notes"

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Behave.

isnt that all of our dreams?



"if it aint broke dont fix it" shouldnt be applied to music, as its a journal of personal and emotional growth. people change, so do their riffs.



talk about it. the solos on the early albums were really, really good!




first of all, as ive said at least 3 times by now, i was talking about his solos and not his riffs. i love morbid angel riffs. and you honestly cannot call the echo pedal tapping wankery on gateways formulas and heretic anything more than a rehash of a once inventive idea. its trite and it doesnt add anything. trey however, loves his own solos to release a whole separate album of them. and its not even like they are hard to do, the guy from mithras totally ripped him off and did it just as well



oh i can follow the progressions,absolutely. there is no deniyng chuck progressed from his zombie gore days to sound of perseverance. his solos,however ,changed very little. he rehashed the SAME ideas over, and over, and over and over again album after album. whyd he start control denied? because nobody got along with him. you take people like chuck schuldiner and phil fasciana, who have worked with different lineups almost every album, and they have to be difficult to work with. dead or not,chuck was probably a real prick to get along with.




no sports. no movies. video games are controlled by me, and no i dont play them anywyas. one of the first things they tell you in any english composition is to AVOID using cliches. a cliche is the sign of a writer with a poor ability to express himself, which you seem to agree with. that being said, chuck and treys solos are cliches, innovative or not


yes, and when you stop coming up with good ideas, you stop. ahead. while people still love you. helloooo, carcass. helloooo darkthrone. helloooo immolation. all these bands have used up their ideas and should have bowed out.i never, ever,ever said i can come up with as much material as anyone here did. i said its not good. have you ever heard the quote "the first job of a citizen of a democracy is to keep his mouth open"? just because you cant do what the other person has done, doesnt mean it shouldnt be actively watched and criticized.


Bottom portion



yes, i have two , just two, solos that i feel are very strong and im quite proud of them. who said they couldnt be influenced by someone? all of life is influenced by people.

there, now that ive thoroughly dissected your post, feel free to reply

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heads up: this is just me ranting no real constructive analisis here.

ok... Malmsteen is definatly the most overrated and shit guitarist I own an ablum of (exept mabe kerry king, but hey its slayer, they dont have to be good they just have to be slayer and its all good)
Any ways, my guitar teacher is an old 80's neo-classical guy, and damn, just damn... the people he knows and he himself kick the living shit out of that sell out bitch; my teacher played on stage with malmsteen once and sent him off with his tail between his legs; hoping know one noticed that he sucks so bad compared to the other people around that time. Think about his songs though (basicly only two of them) they arent realy that spectacular; the only thing he has going for him is he "started the genre" which he didnt, he just did a shit job of copying other awsome players.

ok I have another one: steve via; all I can say is wtf?? what is this shit your playing? ok your a "good guitarist" so why dont you play something worth listening to? Its just... bad.

Vanhalen: Eruption was good: so why do all your other songs suck???? where the awsome leads in jump? I cant respect somone who doesnt use their talent.

should I even post this? oh well...

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Ok I wasn't gonna post here cause this is a time bomb waiting to explode,but I have got to give my input.


Now I know this is all a matter of opinion,but how Karl Sanders and Chuck's name even got mentioned in this is beyond me.Yeah they may do a lot of the same things,but the feeling both those guys put into each album is unmatched.Even buy you guys beloved Cryptopsy.

Now for some weak guitarists;

Loomis(Nevermore): sorry never saw what is so great about the guy
Owen(Cannibal Corpse) horribly overrated guitarist
Trey(Morbid Angel) Nothing special,just tremelo picked solos that sound like shit
King(Slayer) same as above
Hammet(Metallica) Too much wah.......blah blah blah
At the Gates guitarists,dunno the names,but very boring after a while
Rutan(Hate Eternal) I would love the guy if he wouldn't do the same shit,as pointed out earlier in this thread

foxguitar, Mustaine is a terrible soloist. I have the same problem with hiom taht i do with Muhammed, same patterns over and over. Freidman on the otehr hand, is amazing.

Party time, this is not a thread saying 'We are all so much better than these guys" it is simply a critique. It is our job as music fans to judge music. Rap is super popular and famous, tey all made names for themselves, should we praise them? No. It's personal taste, and we have a right to make our feelings known on certains bands, artists, songs, and albums.

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listen to friedmans solo in holy wars. then listen to mustaines. better yet, look at a tab. LOL

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transient

Well, you’re saying to quit while you’re ahead? How do you know when you’re falling behind? A musician doesn’t care what others think of their music. They just do it because they love to play and hopefully fans will follow. These people are not worried about repeating ideas that they have used/created over the years. Like I said, if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. If it’s boring, change the channel.

Life is Cliché. The same thing everyday. Do you have a job? If you do, your responsibilities are the same and are established in a routine. My job is Cliché. You asked how my day was and I’ll give the same five answers over the week “busy”. I am boring and uncreative because I do the same work everyday. The only way to change is if I actually do a ‘career change’. Perhaps these musicians should have gotten into nu metal, or rap, or country. It would be a different job than the stuff they’ve created/played. Oh wait, Metallica made a change and they got nailed for it. Carcass got nailed for simplifying their songs. Is nobody happy anymore? You can’t grow if you stay in the same flower pot for years. I suppose the genre is the flower pot? Change genres and you change your music. What happened to the great Neal Young? He had some weird shit that was so off the wall and different compared to his early works and people shit on him royally. It wasn’t even good but at least it was different and creative. I’m sure he wouldn’t be able to make a living off of that kind of music so he went back to what he was liked for.

Well, from what you’re saying that chuck was a prick, the response from fans who have met with him have said the opposite. I never met the guy but I would have loved to. If you met him, you probably would of asked “why do you hatch the same ideas over and over again”. Yeah, cool man, cool.

The first job of a citizen is to pay the damn taxes. He can criticize all he wants but he still has to pay his share. If you don’t like the music don’t buy it. If you don’t like the politics that’s fine but keep paying up anyways. Tom Petty said something along the lines of when someone was criticizing his music “Yeah? Well let’s see you do it”.

When I’m coaching my team and the players give me attitude I just say “If you can do it better or know more than me than go ahead, if not, then shut up.” The metal players are having a hard enough time making a living compared to other music industrys music. Perhaps they are just trying to survive because the ideas have been successful in the past and they need the sales. Perhaps they are influenced by their label or something.

I’m done for now. Feel free to reply, but it better be creative.

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People have knocked Chuck and others Kerry but no ones even mentioned Rick Rozz! He was even kicked out of Death for being a lazy Kerry King clone!

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This idea is one I believe in as well. I hate it when people say, "band `n` is stupid for and shouldn't have even releases so-and-so album" I think that any musical artist that has some kind of integrity should do what ever they want as far as their music goes, and shouldn't get criticized in this way. There's a massive difference between "it blows" and "I don't like it" that some people seem to confuse.

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i really cant be bothered to reply again, because its really pointless, and neither of our opinions matter much anyways


actually i thought of mentioniong rozz, but onlike trey and chuck, he had no redeeming qualities!

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Well, if it's pointless, why did you criticize these players in the first place?

Opinions don't matter much? You're right. That's why these players don't care about repeating the same ideas in their music.

All in all, I wouldn't mind having a few trademarks like these guys. At least people would be able to recognize my style of playing.

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To be a Weak Guitarist/Song writer? I can honestly say without much thought, that it is not mine.

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Dude, I like, totally just saw a cat on that fence over there! WAY!!!!

Seriously, this thread is about as thought provoking and useful as a drunk hobo accidently walking into a street light.

Seriously now.

I don't know how someone can come here and simply throw these kinda of words about Chuck Schuldiner himself, you fuckin' kiddie fag cunt, you do have to know that you cannot simply come here and say something ridiculous like the way you did about the Guy who invented all that shit you do like today, you fuckin' prick, why the fuck did you came with this idiot thread? because you think you're best guitarist? grow up you fuckin' waste.

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Turn around and look, the point of this thread went wayyy over your head.

Please point out where someone said they were the best or better than any guitarists mentioned in this thread? We might aswell not have an opinion if certain bands and players are sacred from critique. Lets all just go with trends and accept what everytone else says in good.

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No. It wont.

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I'm sure most of you who are talking about Chuck can play much better than he can.

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He could you mean?

shut up kid.

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It was sarcasm, douche.

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you're a kid anyway.

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I may be a kid, but you're a douche.

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Why can`t we all just get along

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Again, POINT OUT WHERE ANYONE SAID THEY COULD PLAY BETTER THAN "x" GUITAR PLAYER.

Exactly, noone said that. ALl we are saying is "x" guitarplayer is overrated. Just because someone is dead doesnt make them great. Chuck was a mediocore player at best when it came to technical abailities and reused alot of riff idea. That is all we are saying.

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youre all morons for misunderstanding the purpose of this thread

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Lay it smack down for us then. I'm dumb, I don't get it.

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its not "im better than chuck" or "trey never wrote a good riff". its about song writers who were either blatantly lazy or wrote a lot of solos and riffs that sounded the same. the problem is some people are excessively defensive and argumentative. see: obrien

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I think that Chuck took his ideas a step further which each release. When you listen to Scream Bloody Gore and then listen The Sound of Persaverance it is like listening to two entirely different bands. However, when you listen to the albums in chronological order you will realize that his riffing and soloing techniques improved with each release, but the basic idea never changed drastically from album to album aside from Human's release. That's when Death became more than just another death metal band from Florida.

german people SUCK at writing lyrics.

i mean, have you ever read Destruction lyrics, haha, fucking lame!

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Bwahahahahahaha!

CHEESIEST. SHIT. EVER.

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You don't have to explain something like that man, the truth is there, the people who are inteligent enough already know it all, you're included bro.

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Hahahah, that last page was the funniest shit! Don't be too hard on Obrien, he's too busy writing 'gore odes' to Nicole Kidman to properly understand what you're getting at, Tranny, Zionist & Co.

Zionist was agreeing with you Marino you confused motherfucker!

This thread seems silly, but I'll say one thing:
Luc Lemay knew how to make both songs with simplistic riffs and songs with technical riffs flow like noone else I've heard (hmm actually Cynic is probably on par).

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lemay is one of the best riff writers ever. agreed!

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I don't care fucker, anything related to Chuck Schuldiner needs to be analyzed with care.

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I can't get into gorguts. Any other albums I should buy? I only have obscura.

I heard considered dead was more straight forward, maybe that one will be easier to like.

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get the two from the vaults, erosion of sanity rules. obscuras the best, but maybe its a bit much for some people

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Thats strange,Obscura was the first one I got and I was hooked.Cloaca,Obrien and Transient are more knowlegable I'm sure(on Gorguts) but seriously pick up 'The Erosion of Sanity' fucking killer album.

EDIT: Ha! Transient you fucker,beat me..

YG, here's the order in which you should buy Gorguts CD's:

1. All of them.

(but especially The Erosion Of Sanity)

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What a nigger...

1-From Wisdom to Hate
2-Obscura
3-The Erosion of Sanity
4-Considered Dead

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From Wisdom to Hate is the best, Daniel Mongrain plays on it, and the best songs, he had a part in writing.

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Static-X have some of the poorest riffs AND entire songs I've ever played/heard/seen ... Burn to Burn is the stupidest song ever.. Period.