Which of these do you think had a greater influence on metal today? It is said by alot of people that these are the two greatest thrash albums of all time. Even if you dont agree with that, which do you think is more influential?

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Just look at your avatar and you'll see what is my choice!

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MoP is far and away more sophisticated and technical than reign in blood. reign has brute force and speed, but there was a lot more thought and work given to everything about MoP. lars isnt as good as lombrado, but other than that metallica is better than slayer on that album

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I Disagree.

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how

compare the song structure of damage, inc to angel of death

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reign in fucking blood.

isn't this goin' on somewhere else?

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i prefer not man, i just like Reign In Blood much more than i like Master Of Puppets, i don't care much about song structure and that shit, if you ask the maiority on that forum, they'll certantly say Angel Of Death.

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I dunno, maybe not.

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I like master of puppets more, not sure wich had more influence thoug...

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Extreme Aggression!

Shit, i thought i made this a poll...I think they are both great albums but i think reign had a greater influence on metal than master of puppets. Metallica had long song structures and Slayer had realy fast short songs. What do you mostly notice today, long songs and medium tempos, or fast short songs?

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Reign In Blood. Of course. Duh. Like t0tally.

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The technicality of Master of Puppets is quite overstated here. The only thing more complex about Master of Puppets is the song structure and most of the bass lines and fills. None of the riffs in MoP are more complex than the better riffs in RiB. The solos on RiB are better, not to say they are great, because they are just decent, but I really don't need to hear any of Kirk Hammett's overrated solos.

So which one is the better album? That's entirely a judgment call. I enjoy RiB more than I do MoP. I used to play them both constantly when I was in high school. Which one is more influential? I think that's pretty obvious. Metallica's influence on other bands of this period is largely overstated.

How many bands were strongly influenced by MoP? No, not how many bands list that as a favorite album in an interview, that means shit. How many were directly influenced by MoP? Name me every mid paced thrash metal band with strong song structures, good guitar work, great bass work, mediocre drumming, and lyrics focused on political and societal issues. Now, name me every speed obsessed thrash band with awesome riffs, mediocre solos, awesome drumming, practically non-existent bass, and lyrics focused on war, death, and the occult. It's pretty obvious to me which had the stronger influence.

One band I feel the need to bring up at this point is Possessed. They are not one of the more popular thrash bands, but their influence was very strong on early death metal and some thrash.

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I can't really make a choice as these are two albums I really enjoy. As far as influence goes, that's tough too. While Reign in Blood may have a much wider direct musical influence, Master of Puppets probably has equally indirect influence. Myself, for example, first got seriously into metal after I bought Master of Puppets, but nowadays, my writing is much more influenced by Slayer.

Chris said that MoP can really only claim technicality in the areas of bass and structure over RiB but I disagree. MoP is also far more technical in areas of harmonization and overall understanding of music theory (via the late Cliff Burton) as well.

I'd also like to take the time to point out that I find it annoying that all anyone fucks about is how overrated Hammett is. It wasn't so much his style that people like myself find great, but more his use and understanding of modes and diatonics found on Metallica's earlier records. I just find a comparison of Slayer and Hammett solos ridiculous. Slayer had great energy and speed when it came to their solos yet they have recycled the same chromatic patterns and whammy bar wankings for the majority of their soloing carreers. While Hammett's soloing may seem rather commonplace and nothing to write home about, he at least structured them a bit more and (on the earlier records) made quite frequent use of different modes within his solos and avoided repeating the same sequences for the entire record.

I also find the deeming of MoP's drumming mediocre to be a bit odd (this isn't directed at you Chris). Yeah, Lars probably can't hold up to Dave, but I don't think that he did anything blatantly mediocre on the album. Sometimes it seems that all people base the labeling on is the fact that Dave played faster and was a member of Slayer and that Lars wasn't playing as fast and didn't play fast throughout the entirity of the song.

Well, that's my two cents.

I guess I should point out that what I wrote above isn't directed at any one person and no one should take anything I wrote personally. This is just an album/band/topic I am very passionate about and I just feel I needed to put my thoughts out there in defense of this album. So whichever album you may pick over the other one its all cool, just as long as you made that choice on your own and didn't let anyone's opinions make the decision for you.

Reign In Blood I like better, but I dunno which had the greater influence.

You know, '86 was a good year for thrash:
Metallica - Master of Puppets
Slayer - Reign In Blood
Megadeth - Peace Sells.........But who's Buying?
Exodus - Bonded By Blood (not sure here, I think it's '86)

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i dont understand how anyone could prefer slayer's solos. they are simply hideous, its obviously adlibbed chromatic shit, besides the fact that hanneman cant pull them off live. hammet's not a technically astounding soloist (can he even sweep?) but his solos fit the music and remain much more melodically in context than either hanneman or king

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reign in blood has influenced almost all black and death metal from today so RiB. personally i have no idea, they're about equal, possibly RiB by just a little nose.

Sepultura - Schizophrenia!

Bonded by Blood was '85. I do believe Watchtower's first album, 'Energetic Disassembly', came out in '86. Off the top of my head, I can think of a few classic thrash albums that came out in '86-

Metal Church- The Dark
Kreator- Pleasure to Kill
Dark Angel- Darkness Descends (so much better than their first album it's almost a different band)
King Diamond- Fatal Portrait (I guess black/thrash, but still thrash)
Destruction- Eternal Devastation
Fates Warning- Awaken the Guardian (progressive/thrash, still thrash)

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Well, every dread-locked band in the world bows down to Slayer.

Every hard rock band sees Master of Puppets as the heaviest thing out there.

Now, Slayer's idea of speed and agression over musicality is a big factor in bands like Slipknot and Hatebreed's style. However, I'm not saying Slayer is nu-metal, or mallcore or whatever, and they certainly have influenced meny good bands, but it's undeniable that their brutal simplicity is a big part of the "Slipknot recipe."

Metallica are in the same boat. While they have influenced many good and even great bands, they're also responsible for many of the Nickelbacks of the world. With Sanitarium, they ushered in what is all but Korn's auditory rape. Think about it: if Korn had written the lyrics to Sanitarium, no one would have seen it as out of the ordinary. I'm not saying Metallica's lyrics are mallcore bullshit, but that song inparticular is one of the roots of the self pitying lyrics that plauge music today.

Both are both highly influential, but in distinctly different ways. Both are equally good and bad in the music they've spawned, and in the end, equally influential.

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reign in blood without a shadow of a doubt

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Eh, Lars does more different shit, but Lombardo is a faster/more technical drummer when he wants to be. Hanneman and King are way more technical and faster than Hammet, but better, is an opinion.

I'd say Reign, because it brought more new ideas to the metal table than mop.


AHA! Kreator, Exodus, and Watchtower was as innovative if not more than Metallica. Sorry Trans. Everyone thinks Metallica was so influential just because everyone and their grandma bought the album... and a fraction of the people bought Kreator, and a fraction of THAT bought Watchtower.

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Master of Puppets,i personally like South of Heaven better than Reign in Blood

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hah, thats a pretty funny joke

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Ya, ain't it?

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South of heaven was a good album but i dont know what Slayer had in their minds when they made that album. They must have wanted to try something different. Gladly it didnt turn out like Metallicas aproch of different.

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Watchtower was more innovative than Exodus, Kreator, Metallica, and Slayer put together. They were obviously influenced by another innovative band, my dear old Rush.

BTW, everyone making fun of the guy who likes South of Heaven better than Reign, maybe that's a little weird, but South of Heaven wasn't the awful album you lot are making it out to be. There were many good songs on it, it's one of my favorite thrash albums. I'd almost be tempted to throw profanity at you losers for underrating it so badly, but I'm afraid I'll have to save my energy for the next time one of you jerk-offs mention how 'awful' Divine Intervention was and how Slayer sold out after Dave left.

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pleasure to kill was far and away head of its time. 1984... that was some heavy and evil stuff. predates most sodom too, doesnt it?

as for watchtower, they sound nothing like metallica OR slayer. i dont really know what theyre plan was when they started making music, but it definitely started many bands on the path to technical metal.

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Pleasure to Kill wasn't ahead of it's time, it came out in 1986. There was plenty of other similar stuff that year. Hell Awaits and Seven Churches may have been slightly ahead of their times in 1985. Energetic Disassembly was light years ahead of it's time, Watchtower's two albums have pretty much started a whole new genre focused on technicality.

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i gota say man, I respet your opinion on musicality and stuff. But really when it comes down to I don't give two shits about how tallented a band is if there shit gives me that feeling that im sure all of you have felt with music you love. And i love MoP and i love RiB, but I gota say pound-for-pound RiB has more headbanging killer "FUCK YEA!" moments. I dont' give a shit if they can or can't play arpegiated solos for 10 min at 29038429384 notes per second, I care if they fuckin destroy.

But I know thats just my opinion, and im not flaming you or anything...so right on to everyones ideas, yay!


SLOW DEATH!/EMENSE DECAY!

yep, boils down to personal opinion


chris- i was wrong. thought it was 84..... still, even in 86 its pretty heavy.

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Agreed, RIB is overrated, and frankyl.. very boring.

MOP Incorporates alot of musical elements, something Slayer has always failed to do.

Fast riffs and shitty solo's dont please me much.

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Reign In Blood

I think MoP.

RIB is good. It is fast, aggressive, etc, but I prefer MoP still. I can get really bored of RIB, and I don't like all the songs on it. Pretty much just Angel of Death and Raining Blood. MoP, to me seems more timeless.

Agreed. The only song that didn't get boring to me on RIB was Epedemic,that song fucking owns.

They are two of my fav albums ever
err Reign In Blood simply because i love Slayer to death!

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I just realized how much Pantera was influenced by Metallica...

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Well, MOP had alot more influence on the "Metal Scene", but Riegn in Blood is better without question.

Lyrics are better on reign in blood. More metal today is influenced by metallica...sadly...i wish slayer was more influencual than metallica but that isn't the case. Master of Puppets is more complex than Reign in Blood but Reign in Blood is just brutal has hell it also doesn't loss its direction like Master of Puppets

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I like them both.... I ....don't know what to say about it! Slayer are better but I really like MoP. Both are fun as hell to play.

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Reign In Blood.

To me, this album still sounds like it could have been released last year. Master Of Puppets hasn't fared as well as one can tell that it is definitely an 80s thrash album. As for influence, Reign In Blood hands down.

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Reign In Blood, for sure. And Justice For All is a better album than Master of Puppets by far in my opinion.

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Reign in fucking blooood!

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Well, maybe it's just because I'm a bass player, but I can't get into And Justice For All as much.

No bass=No win.

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Master of Puppets

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How? Ive never considered Pantera influenced by Metallica at all..

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Well, maybe its just because I'm a guitar player............

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Master of Puppets. And I should probably back that up, too.

Transient is right about it being more technical. Damage Inc? And the title track? Master of Puppets is played faster than anything on RiB. (The intro is 220 bpm to be exact, I don't know any BPM on Slayer). And besides, one word completes it:

SANATARIUM! -|-

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Not all of Panteras stuff. Listen to Master of Puppets, then listen to Cowboys from Hell. I can see an obvious influence. If you want a song comparison, Battery by Metallica, and Heresy by Pantera.

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Reign in Blood

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if you dont know the fuckin BPM, then how can you say MoP is faster?

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What I meant by that is that MoP is faster than anything Slayer did. I wasn't judging by BPM, but I'm sure that does factor into it.

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I never really thought about comparing these two albums, but I concur with everyone who prefered MoP. I would explain my reasons, but I'd be wasting space as most people in this thread have already layed it out.

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The intro to Dittohead is around about 240 bpm.

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Fool, bpm is the deciding factor in speed. End of story.

I believe Chemical Warfare has parts in it that are in the mid-200's.

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Besides, Metallica's fastest song isn't even on Master Of Puppets: Dyer's Eve!

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The influence Metallica had on Pantera is relatively small compared to local area bands like Watchtower and Dead Horse and a non-area band that Phil happened to be a fan of, Exhorder.

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Dont drag that Exhorder bullshit inot this thread Chris.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/bl...ewsitemID=30285

They ended that useless fued, time for others to do the same.

Thanks!

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although it is a great album, Reign in Blood is over rated. i choose MOP

Even if you dont believe there was an influence, they both had the exact same sound.

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Duh-
Necrophobic=248
Reborn=224
And thats just off the top of my head.

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Exhorder and Pantera didn't have the same sound. Exhorder is much more of a thrash band. Just take a good listen. I have both Slaughter in the Vatican and The Law. I also have all - literally - of Pantera albums. I will concede that Phil and Kyle have suspiciously similar voices, and also that Exhorder in many ways pioneered the direction that Pantera went in, I think the similarity between the two is overstated, largely due to Kyle's jealousy. If you don't believe me, look at the 'Thank You' and 'Fuck You' lists in both Exhorder albums, and notice which of those two Phil and Pantera were in until they became bigger than Exhorder and Exhorder, as a band or entity, disappeared. Or just listen to the records. I don't doubt that Exhorder were necessary for Pantera to exist; they sound like the intermediary step between the Bay Area and New Orleans scenes, and Pantera in particular. But there's a reason Chris mentioned other bands; hell, Pantera even tried to get Watchtower's vocalist after Terry left (not Alan Tecchio). Obviously they knew them well enough to be influenced by them. Nobody wins anything at this point by calling Pantera Exhorder rip-offs, and it was pretty clear Chris wasn't claiming that. If he was, he would have said it outright. Or I don't know a person I've only talked to a few times over the internet as well as I thought I did.

Oh, and Reign in Blood influenced more thrash and is probably more definitive, but lately I've taken to preferring Master of Puppets, mostly because I've been paying more and more attention to the one thing Metallica has up on most bands: arrangement. Obviously Mustaine's the best riffer they ever had, but, before they got lazy, James and Lars were great at putting songs together. I'm not trying to undersell Reign in Blood, though; nothing gets me pumped up like that record. Strange I try to put it on late at night when I'm about to head to bed.

I would have to say Reign in Blood. Although Master of Puppets is probably my favorite Metallica album, I like Slayer alot better.

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The songs on Reign in Blood are more "samey" than the songs on Master of Puppets, that's why I chose MoP.

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Okay... so Kyle Thomas is saddened by the fact that Dime was murdered. Good, so am I. Every metal head should be, even if they're not a Pantera or Damageplan fan, it sucks that somebody can just get gunned down on a stage like that. How the fuck does that change the fact that Pantera were influenced by Exhorder? Going by that logic, since Alice Cooper respects Dave Mustaine, that must mean his band wasn't an influence on Dave. If that's your logic, I'd hate to see how your math comes out.

Your reference to my post as "Exhorder bullshit" is your trying to make it seem as if I'm pushing some sort of agenda. How the fuck could my post have been interpretated that way? Why not say "yo chirs keep that wathctower & dead horse bullshit outta here"?

If you've ever heard Exhorder or known the FACT that Phil was an Exhorder fan, you'd know that Pantera were influenced by Exhorder, among other bands. I'm not saying Pantera ripped off Exhorder, which is obviously how you interpreted it (why, I'll never know) and the source of your being overly defensive. I'm saying they were influenced strongly by several bands- Watchtower, Dead Horse, and, whether you want to admit it, Exhorder. Anybody who knows shit about the roots of Pantera and had heard those three bands knows that.

The feud between Pantera and Exhorder has been long dissolved. My personal negative feelings toward Pantera regarding Exhorder have long dissolved. Apparently, the only feud here that hasn't dissolved is that of Pantera fans who want to pretend like Pantera were so original they were never influenced by anybody, especially not Exhorder, whose name causes them to take offense and become defensive for no good reason. If I'm wrong about this, you wouldn't be making a fucking argument where there was none.

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Ok cool. Its all good then. And yes, Phil is an Exhorder fan, and has even done promo pics wearing an Exhorder shirt. I admit that Exhorder definetly Influence Pantera.. I just assumed you were gonna try and claim that Pantera stole Exhorder's "style" like so many others say..

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The only person who claimed that they sounded identical was that charming Lamb of god\m/ fella up there. Like I said, Chris isn't the type to be cutesy when he wants to say something; he wouldn't flirt and dance with the statement, he'd make it.

My apologies if my post came off as total douchebaggery, but your whole post both confused and annoyed me. I'm glad we resolved this.

PST has it right, anyway. If I wanted to say something, I would have been quite direct about it. I've never been one for insinuation, alluding, or dropping hints- those are effeminate headgames for bitchy girlfriends who get mad at you for not paying attention to them 24-7 and for people with an exaggerated sense of self importance who... well, who get mad at you for not paying attention to them 24-7.

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YAY! LETS ALL HAVE UNPROTECTED GAY SEX PLEASE!

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PM Transient, he'll be more than willing to accomodate you.

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He got old fast...

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Reign In Blood had a MASSIVE influence on me at a very young age. Though Metallica is alot easier for me to play (I'm far from perfection).....Angel Of Death will forever be an anthem for banging heads across the universe!

Master of Puppets has better solo's and the songs are more variated.
But Slayer just stomps your face in, which is great sometimes.

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Both non-Reign In Blood songs, though.

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necrophobic is track 3, and reborn is track 7, both ON reign in blood.

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They are, indeed.

Slayer were faster than Metallica, there really isn't much room for argument here. Were they a better band? Now that's up for argument. Were Slayer better musicians? Again, up for argument. They weren't in my opinion (unless you are matching up Dave with Lars, that's a no contest). I find them more enjoyable, though.

As for who had the bigger influence on the true metal scene, I think that one is pretty obvious.

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Well, let's stack up the two eras.

Lars vs. Dave

Ok, no real contest. Lars is never going to get teh "Best Drummer Ever" award. He's solid, and good at what he does, but overall, he's not really anything to go crazy over. Dave Lombardo redefined drum playing. His speed, matched with his ability to keep that tempo for extended periods of time, were a, if not the biggest part in Slayer's formula.

Slayer wins in the drum department.

Cliff vs. Tom

Ok, this isn't really fair. Tom Araya never really set out to set the world afire with his "mad bass skills." He's alright, but basic to say the least. His main position was always as singer. However, I'm not going to lie and say that, expecially when I was a beginner, he playing on "At Dawn They Sleep" was impressive. Cliff was semi-trained in classical playing, and didn't have to worry about singing entire songs.

Metallica wins with bass.

Hetfield/Hammett vs. King/Hanneman

Ok, this is really the only evenly matched competition. Hetfield and Hammett are one of the more perfectly matched guitar dous of the thrash scene. Hetfield's rythm ability was very impressive, especially considering he was singing at the same time. Hammett's leads at this point were still fresh, and well constructed. He wasn't as dazzling as he was in Exodus, but musically, he was much more sound. King and Hanneman had a different apprach though, sharing both rythm and lead duties. Rythmically, they are extremely tight, playing faster than most and with an angry intensity that hundreds of bands have mimiced, but few have mastered. Their leads, however, are a bit of a different story. It wasn't really until Seasons in the Abyss that King and Hanneman really put effort into their solos, and at this point, they were still slamming screeching cats on their fretboards, and not really bothering with key or musicality. Now, really technicality wasn't really necessary, as they were going more for straight anger and intensity, but at times, that same sort of random note/whammy wanking solo can wear thin.

Hetfield/Hammett win by a slight margin, not for speed or intesity, but for being more well rounded than the other duo.

Hetfield vs. Araya

Now, this is kind of like apples and oranges. Comparing the two sort of relies on music they were playing. Hetfield was still fairly angsty and shrill at this point, and fit the music pretty well, combining punk yelling with a still developing singing ability. Araya yells. Plain and simple. Aside from the seldom heard scream that he possesses, Araya is pretty comfortable just yelling his ass off. Say what you will, but it works. Both styles work very well for teh music. Hetfield couldn't yell for Slayer, and Araya doesn't have the pipes to sing for Metallica.

In overall ability, Hetfield would probably get the nod, but Araya wins for the Angel of Death scream.

So, there's my two cents.

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I would have to say Master of Puppets. Way before I even started playing guitar, I can remember sitting at my grandmas house with my little sony cd player listening to M.O.P. I told myself then that I have to play guitar....Its what I have to do

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I'd have too agree with you, Anubis. Slayer solos didn't really blow my mind, or basically interest me as much as Metallica solos. Kill 'em all had the BEST solos. Whereas RIB solos were kind of... Bleh....

fuckin you gotta give it to fuckin slayer just because of fuckin dave.

I agree with what you're saying but it might be helpful if you expanded your vocabulary beyond expletives - you do too much 'fuckin' over the internet.

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Yeah, sorry, I realized that the other day. I didn't even get a chance to fix it.

My mistake.

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To I personally enjoy RiB more than MoP. A far as influence goes it depends on the genre. RiB is extremely inluencial to many Nu-metal bands (how? I dont dont know...), while MoP is more infuencial to more thrash directly after its release in my opinion. Current thrash is probably more influenced by RiB than MoP, hell, modern metallica isnt even influenced by master of puppets.

Influential to Nu-Metal bands? No, no, no. Diabolus, yes. But not Reign in Blood. I have never heard anything remotely similar to RiB played by any of those talentless shit bands.

Putting RiB in the same sentence as nu-metal is a sacrilage, and I'm sure everyone here would agree.

Reign in Blood = Greater
Master of Puppets = Better written (skill wise)

Of course ^ is my opinion.

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I was going to reply about RiB's influence is more widespread and blatant in metal today, but really, it seems like a lost cause trying to explain it for people who can't hear it for themselves.

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More widespread than Puppets, yes. But RiB in nu-metal? I'd have to disagree...

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220 is nothing.

go to SLSK, search and download Kruiz "The Last Dawn" (the demo version). it's played at almost 320 bpm.

I wasn't talking about nu-metal.

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I know people that can play master of puppets that are in the 7th grade, (including solo!) I really dont know many people that can do what slayer does. I think Master of Puppets was great and all but Slayer is just (like so many have said) brutal and shall i say insane.
I honestly think slayer is more influential, look at death- Scream Bloody Gore, sounds like alot of slayer to me, and without death would we have what is death metal today? What did metallica give us? Not Much and if even a little most werent good (xept a few). Its awfully rediculous that people would even think of Master of Puppets better than Reign in Blood. FOR SHAME! I think the riffs for MoP were more complicated but RiB was just better. The first time i heard a slayer solo i was like "HOLY SHIT!!!!" (happened to have been Angel of Death) the first time i heard a metallica solo (happened to have been MoP) i was like "oh... yeah... thats pretty good..." I think they are almost incomparable, if you wanna compare something, compare Cowboys from Hell and Reign in Blood, then i cannot choose.

Slayer solos are, for the majority, horrible.

Meedly, meedly, meedly, meedly! What? What's that? Key? What the fuck is key?

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Majority? I think they're complete utter shit. I like some of Slayer's stuff, but I like them more for they're good rhythm stuff, rather then their solos. Their solos are just the most random shit played really fast. About the only solo I like from them is Seasons in the Abyss, that solo's awesome especially if you watch the video to it.

That's why I said majority, as you yourself just pointed out a solo from them that you like, thus not making all of them bad. Majority? Yes, that appears to be the correct word.

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fuckin fuckas, fuckin fuckfaced fuckers fuckin up fucked up fuck!

Death's early work sounds like they were more influenced by Possessed than they were by Slayer. It's hard to quantify at any rate, because they started out around the same time as Possessed, but I still think the influence is there because their early demos are largely dissimilar from Scream Bloody Gore, although a few of the songs are the same.

Still, as far as early Death goes, I hear no Slayer, I hear Possessed.

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Stupid argueing topic...just choose Slipknot...they rule

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Master Of Puppets by far I think... reign in blood didnt excite me much and I started playing guitar due to Metallica, even though I aint the biggest fan of Metallica now and like Slayer x300 more.... but I still think MoP is better.

A lot of the songs sound like the same thing on Reign in Blood.

When I saw Slayer and Pantera together Phil Anselmo was playing Slayer riffs on guitar during one of the sound checks for Morbid Angel. I think that speaks for itself (even if he is just a vocalist). Besides, Pantera was still playing "Power Metal" back in the eighties. Not much Metallica influence on those first three albums, more like a Savage Grace or Exciter type influence.

And, back on topic, Reign in Blood rules the streets... It's been so long since I played MoP riffs on guitar that I have forgotten most of them, but I still play RiB songs all the time as a warm up.

he is "only a vocalist" only for pantera.