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  #261  
Old 2011-06-03, 14:02
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Well, wahhh! Catch up, d0od.
Yeah, I was thinking that come next winter there's going to be new candidates in the awards. That is, if anyone remembers.
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-wally: Mom, you shouldn't play after me because it makes you sound even worse than you already do. -wally:*grumbles and whispers quietly* I guess it's cuz I love you or something, but you're still a TURD
Grimm:I could read your mind but its in font size .5
Amadeus:Oh, and was there a cesserole (never mind spelling) involved?
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  #262  
Old 2011-06-03, 14:47
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It's quality that matters, not quantity.

OK, bets are on: Is Soar in fact a totally ginger prankster? And if not, will this thread go on till it's normal limit and be closed, just to have said Soaririty throw a fit because he'll be convinced it's because of his unassailable expose on the evils of the zionist conspiracy? Stay tuned!
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  #263  
Old 2011-06-03, 14:51
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I don't think he's a ginger. His spelling is too good.
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My eldest son's bipolar website: www.bipolarmanifesto.com

-wally: Mom, you shouldn't play after me because it makes you sound even worse than you already do. -wally:*grumbles and whispers quietly* I guess it's cuz I love you or something, but you're still a TURD
Grimm:I could read your mind but its in font size .5
Amadeus:Oh, and was there a cesserole (never mind spelling) involved?
Paddy:the fact that you didn't end up on a kids show makes me question my atheism
Dyldo: You evil strumpet!
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  #264  
Old 2011-06-03, 14:54
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I don't think good spelling in and by itself requires a soul, actually.
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Listening to Slipknot and cutting yourself is ridiculous
Listening to Cannibal Corpse and cutting trees with a chainsaw, now that's metal

"He preferred the hard truth over his dearest illusion. That, is the heart of science."
- Carl Sagan

"Imagination is more important than intelligence" - Einstein
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  #265  
Old 2011-06-03, 14:57
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You wanna argue about it?
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My eldest son's bipolar website: www.bipolarmanifesto.com

-wally: Mom, you shouldn't play after me because it makes you sound even worse than you already do. -wally:*grumbles and whispers quietly* I guess it's cuz I love you or something, but you're still a TURD
Grimm:I could read your mind but its in font size .5
Amadeus:Oh, and was there a cesserole (never mind spelling) involved?
Paddy:the fact that you didn't end up on a kids show makes me question my atheism
Dyldo: You evil strumpet!
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  #266  
Old 2011-06-03, 15:03
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Not really, I'm quite content with knowing that I'm right.
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Listening to Slipknot and cutting yourself is ridiculous
Listening to Cannibal Corpse and cutting trees with a chainsaw, now that's metal

"He preferred the hard truth over his dearest illusion. That, is the heart of science."
- Carl Sagan

"Imagination is more important than intelligence" - Einstein
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  #267  
Old 2011-06-03, 15:25
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Okay.

See how easy that was?
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My eldest son's bipolar website: www.bipolarmanifesto.com

-wally: Mom, you shouldn't play after me because it makes you sound even worse than you already do. -wally:*grumbles and whispers quietly* I guess it's cuz I love you or something, but you're still a TURD
Grimm:I could read your mind but its in font size .5
Amadeus:Oh, and was there a cesserole (never mind spelling) involved?
Paddy:the fact that you didn't end up on a kids show makes me question my atheism
Dyldo: You evil strumpet!
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  #268  
Old 2011-06-03, 15:59
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Don't worry, Joe. Not many people join a forum just weeks after learning how to type!

Nomad also deletes old posts sometimes (or used to, when he existed) so I'm sure you would have passed that benchmark awhile ago if it wasn't for that.
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  #269  
Old 2011-06-04, 05:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
It has nothing to do with being "Black Metal."

And it wasn't a referenced to what you said, it was a reference to what I said regarding the general shape of society, it's embrace of weakness, perputated not least of which by judeo-christianity.

Okay, sure. Maybe you just quoted the wrong portion of my text as a jumping off point, but that's the context it gave your post. My points still stand, Moynihan's musical output aside.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
This was a secondary point in my post, and I indicated that authors such as these understand the link between downward directions of multicultural society and historically foreign, imposed religions which perpetuate them.

Your point is awful. Judeo-Christian ideals aren't any more foreign to this country (the main opus of this discussion) than white people are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
It doesn't have anything to do with you. You completely missed the context and lack any sense of appreciating it for what it is. This is the main reason why from the beginning I could tell you are a terrible person to have a discussion with.
That's because there's nothing to appreciate. You don't have an open mind and can critically reason neither your own ideas nor mine. You simply dry heave your opinion redundantly and aggressively and hope that, eventually, everyone will suddenly agree with it.
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  #270  
Old 2011-06-04, 11:17
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What is going on? lol.

Anyways, I side with the forum regulars. WE DUNT LIKE DEM OUTSIDERS ROUND HER.
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  #271  
Old 2011-06-04, 11:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
By the way you keep accusing me of being loud, except it's you using capital letters an exclamation points when I did no such thing. In fact I've tried to be as civil as possible under the circumstances.

You weren't any more civil in your first post in this thread than you have been now that I've besmirched your fair sensibilities by daring to disagree with you in the same tone you barged into this thread using. I'm simply returning the favor, sunshine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Just so you understand, that the following is not considered proving a link between corporate crime and exacerbating poverty rates (and it is certainly no link to the type of violent crimes by gangs and individuals who don't give a shit about the society they chose to be a part of - that was the original point if you care to recall)

Sure, and it's a pretty easy link. White-collar crime directly causes lower wages and fewer jobs for everyone. How it escapes you that this could possibly contribute to the poverty rate is astounding and speaks a lot to your (in)ability to reason on a higher level.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
I'll present your brilliant writing individually as you love to do line by line:



Yes actually - you do have quite a substantial burden of proof upon you.

Why? You've made far more controversial claims than I have with absolutely no data or research behind it, and you continue to do so. Nonetheless, I will hold myself to a higher standard than you are capable of and provide facts and data that you'll simply ignore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
The laws of competitive advantage have shown that the increased trade and the decreased trade restriction has actually led to a growth in Mexican GDP and the United States.

The decreased trade restriction (which includes the repeal of Mexican constitutional law protecting tribal land from seizure[Article 27]) actually opened the floodgates to exploitation by US industry and agriculture.

According to Papademetriou et. al, "NAFTA has not helped the Mexican economy keep pace with the growing demand for jobs. Unprecedented growth in trade, increasing productivity, and a surge in both portfolio and foreign direct investment have led to an increase of 500,000 jobs in manufacturing from 1994 to 2002. The agricultural sector, where almost a fifth of Mexicans still work, has lost 1.3 million jobs since 1994."
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/nafta1.pdf


According to Carlos Heredia Zubieta (PhD in economics, former member of Mexican congress), "exports are growing... but the beneficiaries are only a small circle of corporations with ties to the international economy, to the detriment of the majority of small and medium-sized local companies and workers and citizens in general." He goes on to say "NAFTA aggravated the imbalances between the export sector and the rest of the Mexican economy."
http://www.worldpress.org/Americas/148.cfm

As far as industry is concerned, the exploitation had been steady long before (but grew with the advent of) NAFTA. US corporations set up manufacturing plants (maquiladoras) in other nations (a concept I'm sure you're already familiar with) in order to exploit cheap, desperate labor and/or weak labor laws of the host nation. Mexico actually has good labor laws for what basically amounts to a third world country (or close to it), but the advent of NAFTA, in addition to greatly increasing the number of this maquiladors, completely neuter those labor laws (Kamel, Rachel and Anya Hoffman. The Maquiladora Reader: Cross-Border Organizing Since NAFTA. p. 1). This, of course, helps keep much of the working class impoverished and disenfranchised.

According to Elvia Arriola (professor of law @ Northern Illinois) "The law and public policy that enliven the maquiladoras also sustain a widespread corporate practice of exploitative jobs and extreme low wages without providing protection from the unsafe or dangerous working conditions, against the sexual harassment, or the pregnancy discrimination." She further states that workers "feared losing their jobs, knew that sexual harassment and monitoring of their sexual lives was just a part of the job, and were constantly being pressured to meet arbitrary production quotas" and that supervisors at such plants "impose stiff penalties for workers who refuse to give into demands (whether sexual or otherwise)."
http://www.womenontheborder.org/Art...om%20Barbed.pdf

An agreement signed well before NAFTA requires that hazardous waste created by US corporations in Mexico be transported back to the US for proper disposal; instead, these companies save themselves money by simply dumping toxic waste into Mexico's deserts and rivers. Indeed, according our own EPA, only 91 of the 600 maquiladoras along the Texas border have returned to the US to properly dispose of the toxic waste they produce(Kelly, Mary E. Free Trade: The Politics of Toxic Waste. p. 48).

The environmental impacts on Mexico as a result of US agricultural exploitation via NAFTA have also been considerable. According to Papademetriou et al., "The Mexican government estimates that annual pollution damages over the past decade exceeded $36 billion per year. This damage to the environment is greater than the economic gains from the growth of trade and of the economy as a whole. More specifically, enactment of NAFTA accelerated changes in commercial farming practices that have put Mexico’s diverse ecosystem at great risk of contamination from concentrations of nitrogen and other chemicals commonly used in modern farming" and that, additionally, "Mexico's evolution toward a modern, export oriented agricultural sector has also failed to deliver the anticipated environmental benefits of reduced deforestation and tillage. Rural farmers have replaced lost income caused by the collapse in commodity prices by farming more marginal land, a practice that has resulted in an average deforestation rate of more than 630,000 hectares per year since 1993 in the biologically rich regions of southern Mexico."
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/nafta1.pdf

So, there you have it. I've provided actual data regarding exploitation of Mexico by the US in virtually every area a nation is or can be exploited. The environment is being destroyed and human beings are being regularly exploited economically, physically, and sexually. I'm sure you'll just ignore it, but there it all is, backed up with facts, figures, and research by experts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
I'm not sure if you aware of this, but in April of 1995, the United States actually saved Mexico from defaulting on their sovereign debt. Mexico had used $13 billion of a total $50 billion aid package, including more than $5 billion from the United States Treasury, to pay off billions in debts it ran up in a risky financial strategy that collapsed in December of 1994.

Great. And since then, the cost to Mexican agriculture of U.S. export dumping practices made possible by NAFTA is estimated at close to $13 billion (between 1997-2005).
http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs/...ilsonCenter.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
This was particularly worrisome because it was worried then, and proven now, to have had a dramatic increase in illegal immigration.

The poverty rates in Mexico are the largest factor in that. The first wave was their own fault (the peso inflation/collapse of the mid-90's) while the second wave was largely brought about by economic exploitation and subsequent job loss made possible by NAFTA. Immigration has actually tailed off in a huge way the past five years or so, largely because the poverty rate has gone up here and jobs have gone away; they have no reason to come here if they can't find work.

I know you already believe that the vast majority of Mexicans come to this country with dreams of subverting American culture (but not in a Nietzschian way, which is how you would personally prefer to subvert it) and starting a grand new gang so they can be the new John Gotti, Al Capone, or Scarface, but it simply isn't fact. They come here looking for work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Now take a step back and a deep breath - the United States actually bails out the Mexican government and it is the United States who has exploited Mexico?

Absolutely. A one time economic package that isn't even worth half as much damage as this country has cost them in the subsequent years isn't particularly convincing to your argument. It would be like if I patted you on the head and gave you a $10 bill then beat the shit out of you a month later with a lead pipe and stole $25 from you. But, but... don't you remember when I helped you that one time? Right? I gave you TEN BUCKS, man! People have the nerve to complain, man...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Please keep in mind that I am just responding to these things you bring up that you "think" score you points - but I am fully cognizant that they are actually totally off-topic.

No problem with going off topic for the moment, as you are clearly over-matched when it comes to sociology and I can see business and economy is the area in which you feel most comfortable. You aren't doing much
better here, either, but I suppose it was worth a shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
This is in no way goes against anything I said about the crime and attitudes by a visible population of immigrants who could care less about being productive in the societies they choose to live in.
Criminals to immigrate to this country just like everyone else. Do you honestly believe they make up the bulk of the immigrants? If so, provide some figures so back up your point. Otherwise, it's simply more of your loud, obnoxious, ignorant, and highly illogical pontificating.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
That's it? This what you call "so fucking easy." You quote the bankruptcy pricetag of Enron and then move on.

There is no relevance to the disservice Enron did to their creditors and shareholders through their reporting fraud and their market manipluation and poverty rates - certianly no poverty rates that can be linked to crimes. Again, crimes committed by people who I identify as not giving a shit about their communities in the first place.

No descent individual turned to a life of crime becuase the rolling blackouts we experienced for a year became too much to handle.

No, crime increased because wages went down, jobs disappeared, social programs were cut, and neighborhoods got worse. It's a fairly easy connection to make, but your continued rejection of the most simple sociological principles makes any sort of reasonable sociological discussion with you impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
You can't simply just say this had a "fiscal impact" and leave it like that. High school level writing, honestly. I can't believe you write like this and then you accuse me of being disingenuous about having a productive discussion.

Maybe not, but I can certainly cite facts and figures that prove the fiscal impact, as I have done. If that is considered high school level, your complete inability to discredit any of it with facts and figures of your own would have to be considered preschool level, wouldn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
In other words, there are unsafe workplaces in the united states as there is in every other part of the world.

This does nothing to contradict anything I am saying.

Yes, there are unsafe workplaces in the United States (we're supposed to capitalize this country that we supposedly have respect for, son of an immigrant!) directly resulting from the greed and/or negligence of white-collar criminals. The fact that this occurs elsewhere is as relevant to this conversation as the murder rate in Bulgaria.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
You do realize that health care fraud is not considered "white collar" crime necessarily and auto repair fraud is usually conducted by proprietorships, not corporations. I'm not sure if you mean to say "private business" or one of those people that like to call the private sector "corporate" anything because it's provocative.
Health care fraud and auto repair fraud are both characterized as white-collar crime. I'm not including them to be provocative (in fact, I'd already more than made my point without bringing up either); I'm bringing them up because they repeatedly appear on any list or study of white-collar crime in America. They are both frauds committed by trusted persons during the course of their normal jobs. You'd think someone has studied business would be more familiar with what constitutes white-collar crime, huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Securities fraud on the other hand, last on your list is and it is almost always at the expense of other investors.

I don't think the individuals we are talking about committing crimes are the people carrying the counterparty risk in swap agreements exactly.
Ignoring the fact that the people committing the crimes regularly fall on both sides of counterparty risk, and the fact that those ON the counterparty risk side generally cause and are capable of causing MUCH more fiscal damage (see=ENRON, Madoff, etc.), it doesn't change the fact that crimes such as this continue to result in job losses and reduced wages for the average employee, which obviously contributes to the poverty rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
This does nothing to contradict my point.
Saying this every time I systematically discredit one of your points doesn't change the fact that I did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Why don't you take your own pick?

Because I had already proven my point. If you care to challenge for additional examples, pick one yourself out of that rather sizable list I gave you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Pick a company that has done something to excuse people who don't give a shit about the society they live in, see the US as a giant company that owes them something and potentially even came here illegaly.

Again, we're back to the presupposition of immigrants automatically coming over with criminal motives of disrespect, even contempt for, their host nation. This notion is laughable silly, unbelievably immature, and is backed with no facts, figures, or data. Continuing to use this moronic assumption as a counterpoint to the facts, figures, and data only further exposes your inability to critically reason against them.

By the way, that would be correct usage of the term "circular reasoning." Your only evidence that most immigrants come here with the intent of subverting our culture and indulging in criminal behavior is your presupposition that they are. They are because they are = circular reasoning. I know you have a little trouble with definitions, but you don't even have to thank me this time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
I just want to remind you for the fourth time of the context of what I stated that was so deeply offensive to you - foreigners who have no regard or respect for the countries they choose to live in.
You can either deny these people exist or deny they commit crimes.

I can quite easily deny that these people make up the bulk of the immigrants who come over to this country, as you continuously and ignorantly presume. The fact that your entire argument hinges on this unfounded assumption (and that assumption is the only evidence of this assumption) is quite pathetic. If you feel so strongly about it, however, back it up with data that shows the majority of immigrants to be America hating criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
You seem instead to want to tell me they commit just as much crime as anyone else...
No, just that they commit as much crime as anyone else drowning in poverty, including blacks and whites who may have ancestors in this country dating back to the 18th century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
...so much so that it serves no purpose to even isolate them beyond a racist agenda.

That's a pretty hard row to hoe.
It can't be that difficult, considering how many other people in this thread independently came to the same conclusion. Your thinly veiled rhetoric isn't something any of us are new to, unfortunately for you. Even though, I doubt it would have fooled anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Pretty overwhelming research from "experts" that have devoted their lives to the field. You're right, no Black Metal guys (who can actually read music) could never hold a candle talking about society to people like Richard Ingersoll, who has crafted wonderful charts showing the revolving door of teachers in lower class neighborhoods and in turn the "poor opportunities" of the poor "disenfranchised."

I'm sure the main reason the ghetto is the way it is, is because the local high school doesn't have classes where Myron Scholes is teaching economics there and because Salman Rushdie and Arthur Miller aren't teaching English.

Arrogantly mocking legitimate research ≠ discrediting said research. Again, if you had a point to make, you would be easily able to do so with one tenth the hard data I was able to make my point on education with, or my points on the exploitation of Mexico today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
At the end of the day you are making pathetic excuses for the weak, uncultured and degenerate.

"Life does not forgive weakness."

Thank you for continuing to prove my point. Thinly veiled, racist rhetoric, backed up with nothing by presumptuous opinions, circular logic, and topped off with quotes by black metal bands who, in turn, borrowed said quote from Adolf Hitler. Yeah, that row just keeps getting harder and harder to hoe, sweetie. As long as we're just dropping random quotes from our favorite bands, though, I'll join in the fun.

"Puke, puke; I drank too much! Vomit on the chair!
Puke, puke; I drank too much! Even in my hair!"
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  #272  
Old 2011-06-04, 14:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassBehemoth
What is going on? lol.

Anyways, I side with the forum regulars. WE DUNT LIKE DEM OUTSIDERS ROUND HER.


Yiuuuuuh!!11!!1
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  #273  
Old 2011-06-04, 16:51
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Chris is the MASTER DEBATER.
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Originally Posted by moe_blunts
you done told me lots of thangs bout beer n shit and canada. have a grand ol cunt of a good time.


RIP moe.
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  #274  
Old 2011-06-04, 23:06
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This was the longest post ever made on MT, I guess. Someone please make a screenshot of it
EDIT: HOLY SHIT I ZOOMED ALL THE WAY OUT AND IT STILL DOESN'T FIT ON MY SCREEN

Chris, you got a shit load of time man
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  #275  
Old 2011-06-05, 07:50
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Nah, I think he just knows what he's talking about.

Fantastic post, Chris.
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  #276  
Old 2011-06-05, 14:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeYngVai
More importantly: I finally reached 2,000 posts after posting here for FIVE AND A HALF YEARS.

Sheesh...

About time you scumbag!
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  #277  
Old 2011-06-05, 14:50
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YA SRSLY d00d.

I did not read any of Chris's post. I don't know if I could without at least a moderate dose of adderall and some booze. Definitely wins the longest post award, though. Hurrah!
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  #278  
Old 2011-06-05, 21:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Regarding your first point - it is entirely relevant inasmuch as bands like Drudkh, Blood Axis, Zyklon, Old Man's Child (and let's forgo the "can you actually call that true black metal" debate here) frequently refer to the disapproval in the direction of modern society, not least because of the weakness that Judeo-Christianity promotes and it's foreign origin.


It is irrelevant viz-a-viz points 2, 3 and 4 in my original response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
It should go without saying that anything the lyricist writes are her personal belief and she does not present them as fact, i.e. making it necessarily true.


That's not how you presented it, though, is it? You presented it as if the lyrics are, or at least should be, indicative of society.

And this still falls foul of point 1 in my original response. Does Seth Putnam believe what he writes, or does he write it just to get a reaction?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
If you think I extrapolated black metal ideology (for the sake of a convenient term) to be representative of society's thinking - nothing can be further from the truth. I simply pointed out a consensus of view point that is common in Black Metal.


You explicitly said, "Anybody who reads a Black Metal lyric sheet can see..." which is one way of saying that you believe the ideology contained therein - even if it is accepted that the lyrics are representative of the writer's belief -should be an argument accepted by any member of society capable of reading the lyrics. You statement was an appeal, with the implication being that if only the rest of society had access to black metal ideology then they would agree with your stance. Hence extrapolation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
I reference Black Metal because that is the genre of metal I associate with the most.


It also happens to be the genre - along with punk - that seems to contain the largest element of national socialistic ideology. Indeed there is a whole sub-genre of black metal devoted to it, NSBM. Just an observation.

And this still falls foul of accusations of cherry-picking, with the added caveat that you would appear to be incapable of looking outside your own world-sphere. Reference back to my response to the third quototation above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
Here is a very good summary of what judeo-christian religion has done in the way of uprooting paganism and encouraging the replacement of heritage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFxN00yRvcI


And what of Judeo-Christian heritage? Does that not count as heritage? Or is heritage the sole possession of those who settled in an area first?

The Beatles form a huge part of Liverpool's heritage; is this less valid than the culture that preceded Merseybeat?

The slave trade is part of Liverpool's heritage. While deplorable, it has had the knock-on effect of making Liverpool one of the most multi-cultural cities, certainly in the UK if not the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoarAndEnvision
The context for your last question is broad - judeo-christianity and islam are belief systems foreign to areas outside modern palestine/israel where they had originated.


Yes it is broad, because your statement was broad.

This completely ignores the fact that humanity has migrated steadily over the course of its existence on this planet and that abstract concepts such as religion and culture can spread as a meme rather than by mass migration.
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  #279  
Old 2011-06-06, 05:00
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SoarAndEnvision SoarAndEnvision is offline
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Once again Chris - the length of your posts is directly inversely related to its substance. And you incorrectly defined circular reasoning, for what I believe is the second time - what you attempt to define is simply a restatement.

You really are not very clever.

You also don't know the meaning of counterparty risk and you completely misused it. You should look this up if you are interested, but I would suggest avoiding it all together.

Grown-ups in the real world don't point to one buisness failing and say "this effects the average employee and increases the poverty rate."
That is a very stupid and childish statement.
There is this thing called market efficiency. When companies go bankrupt the talent from those firms goes to their competitors, often getting paid more. And yes, the low-skilled workers have mobility as long as the entire industry isn't impacted in a specific region (like auto manufacturing in Michigan). The demand has to be met by the competitors, if there is no demand than the field sucks and the workers should find something else anyway.
This isn't the Soviet Union where there are X number of jobs and when one firm goes out of business there are X-300 jobs the next day.
Idiot.

Sociology in and of itself is a practice largely devoted to the apology of criminal behaivior and weak therputic remedies instead of the actual solution for criminals, which is taking them out in the snow and executing them. Neither based in history or political theory at best, anyone who refers to this as "cold hard research" likely received their undergraduate degree from the growing number of institutions that should be disbarred from granting them.

A criminal is a criminal. He or she doesn't look to crime as a new profession because they got laid off. These kinds of connections are bitching and whining, plain and simple.

There has been no "proof" anywhere in this thread of anything and any attempt at claiming such is pure charlatanism. It's pretty clear that one of us hates criminal behavior and the other enjoys making apologies for it because they feel sensitivity to apparent demographic trends in crime statistics. This whole abortion of a discussion has only been indicative of value judgements.

What you fail to have seen in your hysterical enthusiasm for delivering any answer to every sentence I write is that from the very beginning, I never stated anything regarding "most" immigrants. When speaking very specifically about illegal immigrants, I made sure to clarify this.

You say things like
Quote:
I know you already believe that the vast majority of Mexicans come to this country with dreams of subverting American culture


-- when I actually said no such thing. This is typical of your tactics.

You can point to poverty, and analyze the economic relationships between the US and Mexico - which you did absolutely poorly by the way -- It's pretty clear to me that you don't really read the papers you are quoting, you are likely looking for quotes in google and find a PDF to give the appearance that you have a scholarly command of your refrences. But if you did you completely didn't address the fact of illegal immigration rose during the time NAFTA was in place.

See page 47 of the Carnegie NAFTA piece. The page after will tell you
Quote:
According to these estimates, 79 percent of the growth in the total unauthorized population between 1990 and 2000 was due to Mexican immigrants.


So you see, the efficacy of NAFTA from the beginning was offset by immigration trends. You cite that argiculture lost 1.3MM jobs. It is very clear to see that many of the illegal immigrants seek higher pay jobs across the border.

This is not the subset of immigrants I was ever referring to and the I'm not interested in a drawn out debate with you regarding North American trade relations --

The fact remains, and you will in no way, ever invalidate this point that a subset of immigrants EXISTS that do not care about being productive members of society.

I don't care if they come from El Salvador or if they come from Russia.

Their numbers are significant and they are identifiable.

Lastly, anyone who doesn't understand how judeo-christianity is completely foreign to the true origins of literally all modern-day nations it has touched outside the Dead Sea region has no understanding of pre-christian cultures of those nations, their pagan roots, and the method in which the majority of societies were introduced to the religion: Violence and subsequent hysteria, witch hunts, persecution.

That applies from the Caucasus to South America.

I'm not taking any more time on this fruitless exchange and I hope to keep the promise this time - I can't believe how much time you must have on your hands.
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Last edited by SoarAndEnvision : 2011-06-06 at 05:10.
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  #280  
Old 2011-06-06, 05:18
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SoarAndEnvision SoarAndEnvision is offline
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Lastly, here's something for your next "happy memorial day":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxB6wsBdRPs
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І що орел, коли його орлина зграя
Не рве з землі в блакить ясного дня,
І що за лицар ти з усмішкою льокая,
Без гордих дум, без честі і ім'я?
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