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  #1  
Old 2008-11-02, 04:38
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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So I went to try out some Marshalls...

...and they all seemed to have this mid-range boost which I later found out is supposed to be Marshall amps' signature tone apparently. (I think people describe it as the "Marshall crunch" or "roar".)

Anyway... I'm not a big fan of mids. I'd like to get an amp that doesn't have a default mid-boost. I'm actually looking for an amp that I can get some "scooped mids" tones out of.

There's Peavey and Mesa Boogie around here. Say a Peavey 6505 or a Mesa Boogie Triple Rectifier? Which one would I be better off with for a tight, scooped mids tone?

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 2008-11-02, 22:33
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Essentially, it would go (in a sence of going from HIGHS - MIDS - LOWS) 6505, marshall, mesa... so either/or would give you that, but the 6505 has more of a "high end" screech, where as the mesa focuses more on the bottom end. any of them can be dialed I've found, essentially it's a matter of having enough time to play with the amps and mess with the settings till you get the sound you want.

I play A Marshall TSL which I love, but I've had it for 4 years and my sound has "worn into it". I tend to find the mid switch, turn it off, then bring the mids up to about 1 o'clock to compensate and this is a pretty good tone for my style of metal (tech/prog meets a little bit of grind, thrash, doom, metal-core, and a few other things).

just try and spend time with an amp to see what it will sound like after a bit of tweaking and warming up. I've found that the search for "perfect tone" just end's in dissapointment when people say "I want the sound that x guitarist from band y has", but they dont seem to realise that most of those guys' tone is shaped after the amp with all sorts of e.q.ing, compression and all sorts of other shit during the mix, also when playing at home with heaps of bottom end sounds great, it sucks when in a band situation because thats what the bass guitar is for.

Not to say "dont scoop your mids your, an idiot " but, a guitar IS mids... and when you come to use the amp live or recorded, it wont come through in the mix, especially if you have another guitarist in the band.

Going back to the age old addage - Just try them all out and spend as much time with them, when you find something that sounds good to your ear, go with it, it will "warm in" to your sound over time and will just sound better as it gets a little played in.

good luck with it
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  #3  
Old 2008-11-03, 05:09
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Wink

Thanks for the reply, disinformation.

First of all, I must say that I forgot to mention ENGL, Crate and Randall amps in my first post. Those amps are available here as well.

The thing is, though, that in order to be able to get rid of my Marshall DSL401 combo, I have to either get a Peavey or a Marshall 'cause at the only store where they do part exchange they get amps of those two brands.
I can't afford to buy a new amp and get rid of my Marshall combo myself through some classified ad. It might take years to sell it, and who knows for what price. You know what I mean?

Anyway, what you said about getting a certain guitarist of a certain band's tone is absolutely true. Sure, one can get close but not exactly the same. One should keep that in mind. And I also think one should not be thinking too much about equipment. After all, having fun is the end. Equipment is the means, right?

Yeah, I realise that about the mids being necessary to cut through the mix. I like tones like Suffocation's on the first album, Immolation on their first album, Dying Fetus, Dimebag's tone... stuff like that. I don't know to what extent the mids are scooped in those bands. Maybe they're not entirely scooped after all.

Yes, I agree that trying out different amps and seeing what sounds best to one's ears is the only way to go.
And then besides... one could always tweak the tone with an additional eq pedal or rack module, etc. and there's the speaker cabinets, too.

Thanks again for the reply. One last thing... do you find there's enough gain on your TSL or do you use an overdrive pedal to get more gain?
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  #4  
Old 2008-11-03, 21:25
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I get HEAPS of gain from the TSL, essentially I have the gain knob at about 3'oclock and push the volume up to about 11 or 12 oclock, depending where we're playing. It is a high gain amp, but I've used amps with higher gain, but found that there is a point that it becomes "too much" and there's no definition, that's to my ear anyway. I don't use an overdrive either... just straight amp gain.

I've recently had it re-tubed with some KT-77's and it sounds great, essentially, I tried going for 6550's/kt88's but found that the marshalls power trans wouldn't be able to handle it (I found out the hard way and it blew up on me... so I got another one) so went with the kt 77's and it gives me a tighter bottom end, less mids in general and a crisper top end, so I guess that's why I turn the mids up otherwise it's just too cutty for me I guess.

As for not worrying too much about gear, I agree, it is about having fun and the gear is just a means, so find something that sounds good and works for your budget and settle with it...

Engl's are good, but I've had reliability issues with them in the past (they still sound killer though), Peavey is definately a mainstay amongst the forum regulars here especially a 5150 or 6505, but for me they were too glassy/too much high end, Mesa's are good, but they only really do "that one sound" well. In Aus, most of these amps are far too expensive, so i didn't even bother.

Good luck with it man
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  #5  
Old 2008-11-04, 05:57
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Thumbs up

I see. I also came across conflicting info regarding whether or not to overdrive the power amp section of the amplifier. I guess it's a matter of taste. Some say that preamp-only tube saturation sounds like any transistor distortion pedal and power amp distortion gives you a superior kind of distortion.
Others say that with high-gain sounds, it's stupid to overdrive the power amp section 'cause it gives out a loose sound with loss of bass frequencies and what not.

As a general 'rule', it's commonly agreed upon that tube amps sound better when cranked.

Maybe misunderstandings rise because of a person's negative experiences due to lack of knowledge, bad equipment, etc. I hope I'm making myself clear enough here.

Anyway... I found some interesting info about "British tone" and "American tone". Here it is:

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EL34

"The EL34 is found in many British guitar amps and is associated with the "British Tone" (Marshall) as compared to the 6L6 which is generally associated with the "American Tone" (Fender)."

Now... on searching for what kind of sound these two terms refer to, I came across this...

From: http://www.soundwavesmm.com/eminence.htm

"Smoldering American tone.
The Eminence Patriot Texas Heat 12" Guitar Speaker helps you add a little Texas hot sauce to your American rock, blues, and Southern rock sound. Fat tone with a little top end bite and clarity."

"Classic British tone.
The ultimate expression of that '60s/'70s British sound. Thick, raunchy tone with lots of mids."

These are speaker descriptions, not tubes of course. but from other info that I have come across so far, it seems that the "British tone" means a mid-boost.

So, I think I'll go for the Peavey 6505+. It's a high-gain amp, and I think it'll give me the sound I'm looking for. I'll go and try it out first, of course. Besides, the owner of the store said he would make a part exchange for my Marshall combo, so it's cool.

Thanks again, disinformation! I hope you didn't give me a load of disinformation haha
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  #6  
Old 2008-11-04, 18:52
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hahaha,

Its all good man, I work in a music store myself, I like to try to give people the right advice.

hope it helped
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  #7  
Old 2008-11-06, 15:38
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if you ever play live, you will need mids. The guitar is a midrange instrument. by cutting out the mids, you essentially make your guitar inaudible. Sounds cool in your bedroom, sounds like shit live.

anyways, for you, you're in europe. 5150+ will be more expensive than an engl fireball. The fireball sounds much better, trust me. And dont look at the wattage, it means almost nothing.
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  #8  
Old 2008-11-07, 12:49
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Oh, 5150+ more expensive than Fireball? I haven't checked the prices yet but I'm aware of the probable higher price of Peaveys since they have to be imported from the U.S.
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  #9  
Old 2008-11-07, 15:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonized
Oh, 5150+ more expensive than Fireball? I haven't checked the prices yet but I'm aware of the probable higher price of Peaveys since they have to be imported from the U.S.

i'd check it out if i were you. You could save a pile of money.

However, they sound different, so get what suits you.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahmers Fridge
In the US "fanny" is a word used to describe the ass or butt. Here in the UK "fanny" is a lady garden (vagina)
I was very bemused as a youngster watching the Golden Girls when Blanche said she was going to "spank her fanny" I had visions of a geriatric vertical bacon sandwich red and bruised from being disciplined!!!
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  #10  
Old 2008-11-16, 16:30
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Thanks a lot, man.

I'll definitely go try ENGLs and I'll come back and share my opinions with you all. The best thing to do when trying out amps is to have all the knobs at 12 o'clock and hear how the amp sounds like that. Then you adjust each knob, one by one, according to taste. What do you think?
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  #11  
Old 2008-11-22, 22:44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonized
Thanks a lot, man.

I'll definitely go try ENGLs and I'll come back and share my opinions with you all. The best thing to do when trying out amps is to have all the knobs at 12 o'clock and hear how the amp sounds like that. Then you adjust each knob, one by one, according to taste. What do you think?


pretty much. Sit down with it for a while. And always be careful with the presence. In fact, i find its better to start with the presence at 0.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahmers Fridge
In the US "fanny" is a word used to describe the ass or butt. Here in the UK "fanny" is a lady garden (vagina)
I was very bemused as a youngster watching the Golden Girls when Blanche said she was going to "spank her fanny" I had visions of a geriatric vertical bacon sandwich red and bruised from being disciplined!!!
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  #12  
Old 2008-12-15, 16:31
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Hey, the_bleeding!

How are you doing?

I went to try out a Peavey the other day. I was aiming for a 6505+ but the guy in the store had a 6505 combo and he said it should give me an idea of how the 6505+ sounds like.
So anyway, I found it o.k., although the treble was a bit gritty/grainy whatever. I'm sure you know what I mean. I may have to go an other time and try it out again.
I also went to an other store and saw some ENGLs. They look very prestigious. Very well made and stuff. I remembered your advice about checking out the ENGLs before I get a Peavey and I'll certainly do that.
I hope the ENGLs have a smooth treble.

One more thing... when getting a cab for the amp, will cabs of different brands but having the same kinds of speakers sound different? Say a Randall cab with Vintage 30s compared to an ENGL cab with Vintage 30s? I wouldn't imagine there'd be any difference or noticeable difference but I thought I'd ask 'cause it's better to be sure. Thanks.
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  #13  
Old 2008-12-27, 05:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonized
Hey, the_bleeding!

How are you doing?

I went to try out a Peavey the other day. I was aiming for a 6505+ but the guy in the store had a 6505 combo and he said it should give me an idea of how the 6505+ sounds like.
So anyway, I found it o.k., although the treble was a bit gritty/grainy whatever. I'm sure you know what I mean. I may have to go an other time and try it out again.
I also went to an other store and saw some ENGLs. They look very prestigious. Very well made and stuff. I remembered your advice about checking out the ENGLs before I get a Peavey and I'll certainly do that.
I hope the ENGLs have a smooth treble.

One more thing... when getting a cab for the amp, will cabs of different brands but having the same kinds of speakers sound different? Say a Randall cab with Vintage 30s compared to an ENGL cab with Vintage 30s? I wouldn't imagine there'd be any difference or noticeable difference but I thought I'd ask 'cause it's better to be sure. Thanks.


The cabinets themselves have different characteristcs, but if they are both loaded with Vintage 30's they will definitely sound roughly the same. Just FYI, the Vintage 30 is known for its "mid hump" meaning that it is a pretty midrange centered speaker.

One thing you can do to tame the "grainy" treble with most amps is to back off the Presence knob.
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Originally Posted by the_bleeding
buy a stick of graphite (art stores) and rub it into your nut
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  #14  
Old 2009-01-01, 02:55
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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What kind of speakers do you recommend? From what I gather, basically the most common speakers used in cabinets, at least those used by Rock and Metal bands seem to be Vintage 30s, G12T-75ís and G12K-100's. I'm aiming to try out cabs of each of these three types.

Thing is that when I look at the eq curves on the Celestion site, they all look kind of the same to me.

Anyway... as for the "grainy" treble sound, I'll definitely take your advice and roll off some of the Presence. I should be going back to the store to try the amp once more before I buy it.
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  #15  
Old 2009-01-07, 05:52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonized
What kind of speakers do you recommend? From what I gather, basically the most common speakers used in cabinets, at least those used by Rock and Metal bands seem to be Vintage 30s, G12T-75ís and G12K-100's. I'm aiming to try out cabs of each of these three types.

Thing is that when I look at the eq curves on the Celestion site, they all look kind of the same to me.

Anyway... as for the "grainy" treble sound, I'll definitely take your advice and roll off some of the Presence. I should be going back to the store to try the amp once more before I buy it.


Vintage 30's are definitely the standard. Guitar is a midrange centered instrument afterall, take away the midrange and you take away the guitar. The G12T-75's are fairly mid scooped, I dont like them much on their own, but they mix well with Vintage 30's. I dont have any experience with the K100's although I know a guy who really likes them for heavier stuff.

I prefer Celestion Greenbacks myself, although I use mostly Marshall-esque amps. Greenbacks are very "woody" sounding with a nice fat lower midrange, although they arent particularly great for downtuning as their bass response is pretty loose. You really cant go wrong with Vintage 30's IMO, although if you want the best Vintage 30 out there, grab a Hellatone 60L from Avatar Speakers.
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Originally Posted by the_bleeding
buy a stick of graphite (art stores) and rub it into your nut
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  #16  
Old 2009-01-09, 15:10
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Thanks for the input, Valtiel.

First of all, I have to say again that to me, the eq curves for each speaker type on the Celestion website seem to be very similar to each other hehe. But I'm sure there is an audible difference between them. I can't wait to go and try them.

I read elsewhere that the guitar is a mid-range instrument, but to me, the scooped mids tone (ala' Dimebag and the typical Heavy Metal sound) goes well with guitars. I don't know. At least for rhythm, I'd say.

So, if Vintage 30s are mid-rangey speakers and G12T-75's are fairly mid scooped, perhaps they would mix well together, as you said. That's what I was thinking. One would get a sort of balanced sound that way. A versatile sound for both the 'scooped mids' tone and a more Rock-oriented tone, solos, and what not.

Thanks again.
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  #17  
Old 2009-01-12, 18:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbonized
Thanks for the input, Valtiel.

First of all, I have to say again that to me, the eq curves for each speaker type on the Celestion website seem to be very similar to each other hehe. But I'm sure there is an audible difference between them. I can't wait to go and try them.

I read elsewhere that the guitar is a mid-range instrument, but to me, the scooped mids tone (ala' Dimebag and the typical Heavy Metal sound) goes well with guitars. I don't know. At least for rhythm, I'd say.

So, if Vintage 30s are mid-rangey speakers and G12T-75's are fairly mid scooped, perhaps they would mix well together, as you said. That's what I was thinking. One would get a sort of balanced sound that way. A versatile sound for both the 'scooped mids' tone and a more Rock-oriented tone, solos, and what not.

Thanks again.


1. Yes, it does look similar. Confused the shit out of me too. But they sound VASTLY different. It will blow your mind. Blew mine between my marshall and mesa cab. Then i sold the marshall cab

2. mixing v30's and t-75s will mix well like you said, and it will sound awesome.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahmers Fridge
In the US "fanny" is a word used to describe the ass or butt. Here in the UK "fanny" is a lady garden (vagina)
I was very bemused as a youngster watching the Golden Girls when Blanche said she was going to "spank her fanny" I had visions of a geriatric vertical bacon sandwich red and bruised from being disciplined!!!
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  #18  
Old 2009-01-18, 04:10
Carbonized Carbonized is offline
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Awesome, thanks! I'm glad to know that the difference can be heard. I can't wait to go try them out.
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