MetalTabs.com - your source for Metal tabs
Home Forum What's New Submit a Tab FAQ Links Contact Us Link to Us


Go Back   MetalTabs.com Forum > Musicians > Music Theory
User Name
Password


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 2007-05-17, 11:06
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
Modes just won't sink in!

I just don't get modes, I got told to learn all the positions for the major scale to make it easier so I did, still can't grasp modes and everyone seems to give different methods of learning. Anyone got any advice or help?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 2007-05-17, 13:20
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
Sorry, I just noticed theres a sticky for modes above, stupid me lol. Sorry guys.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2007-05-17, 13:27
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy davie_gravy is offline
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Send a message via MSN to davie_gravy Send a message via Yahoo to davie_gravy
No biggie. Feel free to ask any questions about modes (in either thread).
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 2007-05-17, 15:34
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
Well if its cool to ask something in here then thanks. Problem one is I don't know the right method to go about learning them, because people seem to give you different ways, one is to just alter notes of the major scale according to what the mode is, and the other is to learn the order of modes and you have a mode for a different key each new position you start on if that makes sense. Also I don't know what key I would improvise over with each one. Say if I played a C major scale but altered the notes to make it dorian, would that make it C dorian, and would that allow me to use it over anything in C major AND minor... Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 2007-05-17, 18:11
Unanything's Avatar
Unanything Unanything is offline
Post-whore
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ballater, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 1,128
Send a message via MSN to Unanything
Just play your major scale, but start at a different note than the C or whatever, is the simplest way to learn modes. But learn eth names of the different scales you get when you start at different notes. This way you also learn the 'where's where', or ahem, positional relativity, of different modes at the same time.
__________________


www.garageband.com/tranxnart
www.myspace.com/tranxnart
www.youtube.com/user/Tranxhead



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 2007-05-18, 09:37
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy davie_gravy is offline
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Send a message via MSN to davie_gravy Send a message via Yahoo to davie_gravy
If you played C Dorian, that would be the same as Bb Major. No C Dorian would not work for C major or C minor. Hell... technically you can make any scale work, but for your educational purpose, C major works over anything within the C major scale i.e. (D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc) while C Dorian would work over anything in the Bb major scale (C Dorian, D Phrygian, etc). Hope that makes sense...
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 2007-05-19, 12:09
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
If you played C Dorian, that would be the same as Bb Major. No C Dorian would not work for C major or C minor. Hell... technically you can make any scale work, but for your educational purpose, C major works over anything within the C major scale i.e. (D Dorian, E Phrygian, etc) while C Dorian would work over anything in the Bb major scale (C Dorian, D Phrygian, etc). Hope that makes sense...


That's were I just get confused, it just won't sink in... Either that or its a HELL of a lot to memorise

Last edited by metalshred : 2007-05-19 at 12:13.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2007-05-19, 15:21
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy davie_gravy is offline
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Send a message via MSN to davie_gravy Send a message via Yahoo to davie_gravy
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalshred
That's were I just get confused, it just won't sink in... Either that or its a HELL of a lot to memorise


Don't worry about trying to memorize every note in the scale in every key. The idea is to know the pattern. Once you've memorized the 7 mode patterns, they transpose to every key. So just memorize the pattern and the roots in those patterns. Knowing the roots will allow you to use CAGED theory to connect the dots and open the whole fretboard. For now, play those modes over and over and over in whatever key you want, just burn those patterns in your head.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2007-05-19, 17:18
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
Thanks man, so basically I chose any major key, modify the patterns with a mode chart and do that for every major scale position on the fretboard in that key?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 2007-05-20, 15:27
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy davie_gravy is offline
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Send a message via MSN to davie_gravy Send a message via Yahoo to davie_gravy
Yes. Make sure to practice them in different keys too. You don't wanna get hung on knowing the patterns relative to the key of G
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 2007-05-20, 15:32
tmfreak's Avatar
tmfreak tmfreak is offline
Slayer of dumb cunts
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, va
Posts: 3,622
Send a message via AIM to tmfreak
Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
Yes. Make sure to practice them in different keys too. You don't wanna get hung on knowing the patterns relative to the key of G

Just further chiming in on this and whats been said.

Its definitaly all about the patterns. Now that i know the shapes of a minor scale if i want to play a completely random key (in minor) i'll find that specific note and play the pattern of it.

Like iv'e said before for me i see this as a minor scale.

A--------------3--5--6
E----3--5---6---------

With that pattern alone i can find my way around.

Also with knowing the modes (which i actually don't know them well barely if at all by name) its all the same major/minor scale just starting at different locations within that scale. Which as i see it, makes it extremely easy to learn if one wanted to.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darko
...Its very annoying to keep having to hear some socially-disabled teen come on these boards talking about all the drugs he's started doing so that he can maybe grasp onto some kind of positive response so he feels better about himself and what he's doing.
About requiem. Aint it the truth...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 2007-05-20, 17:53
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
I guess the really hard part is then knowing what to solo over with them
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 2007-05-20, 19:32
tmfreak's Avatar
tmfreak tmfreak is offline
Slayer of dumb cunts
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, va
Posts: 3,622
Send a message via AIM to tmfreak
Quote:
Originally Posted by metalshred
I guess the really hard part is then knowing what to solo over with them


I think people over exaggerate the difficulty in soloing over a progression/chord/note.

Use notes within that key/scale/mode. You can make it "trickier" yes by switching to another scale/mode in midst of a certain chord being played. But i don't know, I guess i have no problems using the same scale or knowledge i've had for quite some time in making good sounding solos.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darko
...Its very annoying to keep having to hear some socially-disabled teen come on these boards talking about all the drugs he's started doing so that he can maybe grasp onto some kind of positive response so he feels better about himself and what he's doing.
About requiem. Aint it the truth...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 2007-05-21, 03:45
Unanything's Avatar
Unanything Unanything is offline
Post-whore
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ballater, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 1,128
Send a message via MSN to Unanything
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
I think people over exaggerate the difficulty in soloing over a progression/chord/note.


I would agree. Just play the notes of the chord or whatever.

One guy I do bow my head to is Terrance Hobbs in this respect. He can play sometimes quite tuneful soloes over some of the most brutal, atonal, key-ignoring riffs ever and still sound good. Quite impressive, if you ask me.
__________________


www.garageband.com/tranxnart
www.myspace.com/tranxnart
www.youtube.com/user/Tranxhead



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!

Last edited by Unanything : 2007-05-21 at 03:49.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 2007-05-21, 07:38
tmfreak's Avatar
tmfreak tmfreak is offline
Slayer of dumb cunts
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, va
Posts: 3,622
Send a message via AIM to tmfreak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything
I would agree. Just play the notes of the chord or whatever.

One guy I do bow my head to is Terrance Hobbs in this respect. He can play sometimes quite tuneful soloes over some of the most brutal, atonal, key-ignoring riffs ever and still sound good. Quite impressive, if you ask me.

And i can agree with how hard that can be sometimes. There will be times where i will completely rewrite the rhythm to a solo section just because i can't find the sound and feeling from the solo.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darko
...Its very annoying to keep having to hear some socially-disabled teen come on these boards talking about all the drugs he's started doing so that he can maybe grasp onto some kind of positive response so he feels better about himself and what he's doing.
About requiem. Aint it the truth...
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 2007-05-21, 12:28
metalshred metalshred is offline
New Blood
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32
Yeah, when it comes to soloing over atonal riffs I always thought harmonic minor can spice it up a little bit rather than just minor. The phrygian mode sounds cool too, really reminds me of harmonic minor.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 2007-05-21, 13:24
davie_gravy's Avatar
davie_gravy davie_gravy is offline
Metal As Fuck!
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: LR AR
Posts: 2,680
Send a message via MSN to davie_gravy Send a message via Yahoo to davie_gravy
You will find once you learn all the patterns to the all the modes. If a jam is in the key of C, you will find every chord in the key of C exists in those modes (based of C Ionian or C major scale position). Then if the next chord goes to E minor, you can play E Phrygian over it and it sounds great, if it goes to G major (or dominant), you can play G Mixolydian over it and it sounds great. I know this from knowing the modes and their major/minor/dominant/diminished properties at every position. Check out the thread of modes to see more on this.
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
__________________
R.I.P. Dimebag
My Music

BuildTheMusic.com is your #1 FREE online guitar resource center.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 2007-05-21, 14:41
Unanything's Avatar
Unanything Unanything is offline
Post-whore
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ballater, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 1,128
Send a message via MSN to Unanything
Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
You will find once you learn all the patterns to the all the modes. If a jam is in the key of C, you will find every chord in the key of C exists in those modes (based of C Ionian or C major scale position). Then if the next chord goes to E minor, you can play E Phrygian over it and it sounds great, if it goes to G major (or dominant), you can play G Mixolydian over it and it sounds great. I know this from knowing the modes and their major/minor/dominant/diminished properties at every position. Check out the thread of modes to see more on this.


You forgot augmented!

I actually like how everyone misses out augmented, it rubs in how unusual it is. It is pretty unusual in that it doesn't have a distinct seventh, I guess...

Apart from that I also agree with what you said. The only way you can do this is by learning all the stuff by position and property.
__________________


www.garageband.com/tranxnart
www.myspace.com/tranxnart
www.youtube.com/user/Tranxhead



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!

Last edited by Unanything : 2007-05-21 at 14:46.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 2007-05-22, 19:40
JonR JonR is offline
Metalhead
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 67
All the modes of a scale do is give you different positions on the neck for playing that scale.
In the key of C major (say), you can play ANY mode of the scale on ANY chord - it makes no difference.

Over a Dm chord, ALL patterns of C major sound like D dorian mode.
Over an Em chord, ALL patterns of C major sound like E phrygian mode.
Etc.

IOW, the chords rule the modal SOUNDS - because they provide the aural root note. The note you start or end your pattern on is irrelevant.

You don't actually need chords, though. You can get (say) an E phrygian sound from ANY pattern of the C major scale. You just have to make E sound like the root. And all the patterns have 2 or 3 E notes in them. It doesn't have to be the lowest note or starting note - but it should probably be the ending note. (And without an Em chord to help, you'll probably need to focus on the E quite a lot.)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 2007-05-23, 13:34
Unanything's Avatar
Unanything Unanything is offline
Post-whore
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ballater, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 1,128
Send a message via MSN to Unanything
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
All the modes of a scale do is give you different positions on the neck for playing that scale.
In the key of C major (say), you can play ANY mode of the scale on ANY chord - it makes no difference.

Over a Dm chord, ALL patterns of C major sound like D dorian mode.
Over an Em chord, ALL patterns of C major sound like E phrygian mode.
Etc.

IOW, the chords rule the modal SOUNDS - because they provide the aural root note. The note you start or end your pattern on is irrelevant.

You don't actually need chords, though. You can get (say) an E phrygian sound from ANY pattern of the C major scale. You just have to make E sound like the root. And all the patterns have 2 or 3 E notes in them. It doesn't have to be the lowest note or starting note - but it should probably be the ending note. (And without an Em chord to help, you'll probably need to focus on the E quite a lot.)


Yeah, I've noticed if you descend through the scale playing root and third, or ascending for that matter, when you stop by II you are still gonna get the Locrian feel.

But you would need to focus on the E to get the Phrygian, that's why people distinguish the modes in the first place. You could play something like VI II III V though, but have an E drone and you would get the sound fair enough.
__________________


www.garageband.com/tranxnart
www.myspace.com/tranxnart
www.youtube.com/user/Tranxhead



Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!

Last edited by Unanything : 2007-05-23 at 13:39.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:50.


========

Contact Us | Privacy Policy | Disclaimer
Copyright © 2001-2009 MetalTabs.com. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.