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  #21  
Old 2007-03-24, 13:27
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Unanything Unanything is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Free
ah yes this is how i know the scale by the shapes not by the notes. I just move the shapes i know to fit a different key so i move the shape i know in C to the Fifth fret and i have A Harmonic Minor. Is this Incorrect? Im beginning to under stand intervals now that i've gathered some information on the major scale.

I wondered that about tuning. So if i put my guitar in in C standard i would be playing the shape of C Harmonic Minor that i know on the 8th Fret at the open position?

Dudes Thanks again... This has seriously gave me a huge jump start into understanding the proper use of scales, chords, and arppeggios!


Yes, you'd be playing Harmonic Minor, only it would then be G# Harmonic Minor. Don't even think in fret numbers. Just think intervals, and their order.

Basically, if you are playing those intervals in that order, you are playing Harmoinic Minor.

Next, you should learn their modes methinks.

Code:
Aeolian Natural 7th (commonly Harmonic Minor) Locrian Natural 6th Ionian Augmented (commonly Harmonic Minor) Dorian Augmented 4th Phrygian Major (commonly Phrygian Dominant OR Hypo-Harmonic Major) Lydian Augmented 2nd Locrian Diminished 7th (commonly Natural Diminished)


I know I might get a couple of dudes going "oh no, it's actually called this", or maybe I won't, but for those who would state as previous, then these are names that I have come up with and believe are the most accurate based on my own long-developed knowledge of intervallic theory, and not on an Internet scale dictionary of sorts, as handy as they are.

Next, you should jump over to melodic minor. If you thought the world of harmonic minor was vast, well...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!
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  #22  
Old 2007-03-26, 06:29
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything
Next, you should learn their modes methinks.

Code:
Aeolian Natural 7th (commonly Harmonic Minor) Locrian Natural 6th Ionian Augmented (commonly Harmonic Minor) Dorian Augmented 4th Phrygian Major (commonly Phrygian Dominant OR Hypo-Harmonic Major) Lydian Augmented 2nd Locrian Diminished 7th (commonly Natural Diminished)


I know I might get a couple of dudes going "oh no, it's actually called this", or maybe I won't, but for those who would state as previous, then these are names that I have come up with and believe are the most accurate based on my own long-developed knowledge of intervallic theory, and not on an Internet scale dictionary of sorts, as handy as they are.
Those are pretty good names, and I'm not one of those dudes who'd going to say they're "wrong"...
but here's some alternate names I've come across (not necessarily better, but sometimes more fun).

Mode 2: Locrian major 6th
Mode 5: Spanish Phrygian
Mode 7: Ultralocrian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything
Next, you should jump over to melodic minor. If you thought the world of harmonic minor was vast, well...
Guess we shouldn't list these unless he asks....
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  #23  
Old 2007-03-26, 15:40
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Unanything Unanything is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
Those are pretty good names, and I'm not one of those dudes who'd going to say they're "wrong"...
but here's some alternate names I've come across (not necessarily better, but sometimes more fun).

Mode 2: Locrian major 6th
Mode 5: Spanish Phrygian
Mode 7: Ultralocrian
Guess we shouldn't list these unless he asks....


I think Ultralocrian is somewhat appropriate actually.

Yeah, it is tempting to just go and scroll through each Melodic mode for all of it's arpeggios. Oh, and the second mode is nothing to do with Locrian, far too convoluted from Locrian.

Fuck it. With root of A,

Code:
A m A m maj 7 A sus 2 A sus 4 A m 6 B m B m 7 B sus 4 B m 6 B 7 sus 4 C aug -(trust III to be completely barren AGAIN) D maj D 7 D sus 2 D 6 E maj E 7 E sus 2 E sus 4 E 7 sus 4 E 7 sus 2 F# dim -(wow, VI is surprisingly barren too) G# dim G# aug G# aug 7


I guess melodic minor is more weird than rich with chords... Oh well... I was thinking of the Superlocrian's interesting overlap of augmented and diminished at the time...

I think I forgot the 7 sus's from the harmonic minor bunch. Oh well...

Anyway, names:

Code:
I - Dorian Natural 7th (AKA Melodic Minor) II - Dorian Flat 2nd (AKA Phrygian Natural 6th?) III - Lydian Augmented (AKA Melodic Major (based on trend of previous scales)) IV - Lydian Dominant V - Aeolian Major (aaah! Betcha never thought of that one! :D, AKA Mixolydian Flat 6th) VI - Locrian Natural 2nd VII - Locrian Diminished 4th (or Superlocrian)


I always thought they should have Aeolian Major, or Hindu, as I for a minor key. Oh well...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!
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  #24  
Old 2007-03-26, 22:32
God-Free God-Free is offline
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Wow thanks! I seriously have enough information to keep me busy for years. In order to play a scale by only knowing its intervals would you have to know all the notes on the fret board? Im just having a hard time trying to play by just intervals, i keep having to go back to a sheet i have with all the note on fret board in order to figure it out.
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  #25  
Old 2007-03-26, 22:44
robbcorpse robbcorpse is offline
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I think when you play for years and actively think about theory like this, it'll start to get clearer and easier to see on the fretboard.

I like to work out notes to a scale but it takes me awhile as well. I usually use reference points and count notes if I can figure it out. I got the feeling the guys that posted here have been playing for some time
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  #26  
Old 2007-03-27, 05:51
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything
Anyway, names:

Code:
I - Dorian Natural 7th (AKA Melodic Minor) II - Dorian Flat 2nd (AKA Phrygian Natural 6th?) III - Lydian Augmented (AKA Melodic Major (based on trend of previous scales)) IV - Lydian Dominant V - Aeolian Major (aaah! Betcha never thought of that one! :D, AKA Mixolydian Flat 6th)

Actually, I have seen "Aeolian major" before - or was it "major aeolian"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything
VI - Locrian Natural 2nd
VII - Locrian Diminished 4th (or Superlocrian)[/CODE]
Or "altered", or "diminished wholetone", as jazz players generally call it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything
I always thought they should have Aeolian Major, or Hindu, as I for a minor key. Oh well...
But then it wouldn't be a minor key! The only thing that really distinguishes a minor key from major is the b3. Lose that, and you have a major key, or at least a major mode.

"Phrygian natural 6th" is actually a nice scale to use on a phrygian modal chord. Some jazz players would choose it in preference to normal phrygian:

Esusb9 = E phrygian modal chord (E-A-B-D-F) = Dm6/E, or Bm7b5/E
Try 2nd mode D melodic minor: E-F-G-A-B-C#-D-E

To expand the info here...

Lydian dominant is widely used in jazz, on 7#11 (or 9#11 and 13#11) chords. Sometimes known as the "overtone scale" - because of the (false) belief that it corresponds with the notes in the harmonic series of the root. (In fact, mixolydian mode is just as close.)

The altered scale (superlocrian) is also widely used, on altered dom7 chords:
E7#5#9, E7b5b9, E7#5b9, E7b5#9, E7#11b13, etc
- use F melodic minor. 7th mode = E-F-G-Ab(G#)-Bb-C-D-E
Resolves very nicely to A (melodic) minor or A major.

Locrian natural 2 is also quite popular over half-diminished chords:
Bm7b5 = B-D-F-A = ii chord in A minor.
Try D melodic minor; 6th mode = B-C#-D-E-F-G-A-B

Perhaps surprisingly, mixolydian b6 (mode V) is not much used at all.
Eg, in key of A minor, very few jazz players would choose A melodic minor over the E7 chord. This is because of the "avoid notes" - C and A don't sound too good over the E7 chord. The E altered scale, however, has no avoid notes.

(Hey, sorry guys, I forgot this was a metal site... )
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  #27  
Old 2007-03-27, 10:25
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Unanything Unanything is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
The only thing that really distinguishes a minor key from major is the b3. Lose that, and you have a major key, or at least a major mode.


True...

But then, the harmonic minor and melodic minor and every other non-natural scale are based on the fact they have accidentals, so... I take key to only refer to the set of notes the thing is based on.

to be honest, I wouldn't pay attention to where these modes or whatever are commonly used, as least too much. Play the stuff, mess about it, make up some arpeggios out of it, add in notes, form some chords, and make up your own use for the things. Way I've always done it.

And for remembering the intervals, you need to just know the order solid. It's always good to visualise bits across the fretboard too. If you learn the modesand their order, it's possible to look at it as though you are landing on the root of that mode and work your way from there looking at that shape. You just need to know what is where, basically.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!

Last edited by Unanything : 2007-03-27 at 10:29.
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  #28  
Old 2007-04-03, 21:59
robbcorpse robbcorpse is offline
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A ways back in this thread, I was having difficulty playing scales in different keys, but through some advice here I applied it and wouldn't ya know it worked.

I know the blues shapes very well and primarily stick with A. I finally sat down and thought about the shapes and how they move and applied that. Granted I was playing the same licks in A, but I finally was able to play them in different keys without getting lost!

A minor thing to some, a bigger thing for me because that same idea can be used for all scales. Funny how things click....
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  #29  
Old 2007-04-04, 06:48
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Unanything Unanything is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robbcorpse
A ways back in this thread, I was having difficulty playing scales in different keys, but through some advice here I applied it and wouldn't ya know it worked.

I know the blues shapes very well and primarily stick with A. I finally sat down and thought about the shapes and how they move and applied that. Granted I was playing the same licks in A, but I finally was able to play them in different keys without getting lost!

A minor thing to some, a bigger thing for me because that same idea can be used for all scales. Funny how things click....


Good man!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
I coated the end of a toothpick with Satan's blood and simply wiped it across the top of an omelet. PERFECT!
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