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  #41  
Old 2006-11-30, 14:31
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
Maybe the example of using the seven white keys was a bad example, but it is still true that an atonal piece of music can be composed without using all twelve keys. For example: leave the D and play the rest in any order, using them all. Or try a hexatonic scale. It has no real root, for you can start at any note. Or try an octotonic scale. That one has eight tones that all can be used as root.
Yes, you're right - symmetrical scales like the octatonic (diminished) or hexatonic (wholetone) would qualify as atonal, IMO.
And I guess an 11-note scale would be as near-as-dammit atonal in effect.
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  #42  
Old 2006-11-30, 14:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
I suspect you don't need to choose the notes at random. (Indeed, random might mean you end up with a tonal set by accident.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
I did not say this within the last group of posts in this topic anywhere. I sayd the order of the notes matters, not the number of notes, which was set to twelve.

I think you're misunderstanding me. You said (which I quoted):
Quote:
"But indeed, dodecaphonic guarantees atonality (as long as you choose the order of the notes randomly)."
My point was that if you choose from 12 notes at random - random order - you may end up repeating a note before you've used up all 12. Which is (a) not true serialism, and (b) might just possibly (tho admittedly unlikely) result in a tonal sound.
IOW, to make sure you use each of the 12 notes once only (even if it repeats itself) you can't make the order random - you have to take note of what notes you've already played to make sure you don't play it again before the other 11 have been used.
IOW, you have to impose a structure, a judgement. You can BEGIN with a random choice, but you need to remove any note that has been used before.
Or to put it another way, you can choose a random order, but only from the remaining (unused) notes. Every time you play a note, it's removed from the pool.
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  #43  
Old 2006-11-30, 19:28
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I'm not reading all three pages of this, so if someone didn't mention Boyd Rice, Edgard Varθse, John Cage and George Antheil you should check out their work.

Schoenberg and Stravinsky were what got men into noise in the first place (well, them and Merzbow).
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  #44  
Old 2006-12-01, 04:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
My point was that if you choose from 12 notes at random - random order - you may end up repeating a note before you've used up all 12.

The way you pick random notes (which indeed should be explayned earlier) is like a vase with twelve balls with on each of those balls a note name. Each ball you take out of the vase, you lay aside. (It is like the lottery, or like the way the UEFA orders the clubs for the first round in the Champions League.) You cannot get a ball agayn that way. This way we choose the random order. Only on this way we will get a row we want.
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  #45  
Old 2006-12-01, 06:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
The way you pick random notes (which indeed should be explayned earlier) is like a vase with twelve balls with on each of those balls a note name. Each ball you take out of the vase, you lay aside. (It is like the lottery, or like the way the UEFA orders the clubs for the first round in the Champions League.) You cannot get a ball agayn that way. This way we choose the random order. Only on this way we will get a row we want.
Exactly. Good simile.
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  #46  
Old 2006-12-01, 07:00
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Else we get a pool of four clubs: Man U, Chelsea, Barcelona and Man U. Will be quite strange. Can you imagine?
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  #47  
Old 2006-12-01, 14:25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonR
Not at all. It will be in the key of C major, or A minor, or one of the modes. The white keys give a pre-prepared 7-note tonal set. That's the point of them.
It may not sound very musical - but it will sound tonal, because (if you play truly randomly) we'll eventually hear C as the home note, because of the familiarity of that usage of those 7 notes.

My main point here is that our ears are attuned to tonality, over centuries. We struggle to find it in any music we hear - we can't help it. It's one of the main ways we make sense of music. This is why Schoenberg expended so much effort on establishing rules about how to avoid it - by not making any selection from the 12 tones, but using them all equally.
I suspect you don't need to choose the notes at random. (Indeed, random might mean you end up with a tonal set by accident.)
You can (and maybe should) plan the order, but you must use all 12 without going back to any of them before all 12 have been used.

IOW, atonality doesn't come from randomness (most of the time, maybe it does, but not guaranteed every time). It comes from strictly avoiding accidental suggestions of or tendencies towards tonality.

John Cage used random principles ("aleatory" music), but he incorporated untuned percussion and other non-musical noises. In any case, his aim was not to produce atonality, but to remove the composer's control, to produce music as contemplative sounds, in which any sound was valid and worth listening to.


I can't say I'm the biggest fan of aleatoric music, although I love the sound Cage's music. I like his Sonatas And Interludes For Prepared Piano. Music is about sounds to me, rather than philosophies. You can't hear philosophies in music, only sounds. So that's what I focus on. Even all the avant-garde-heads that I've met thought I was nuts. This composer called Graham Fitkins told me about when he performed this piece where he had to push a piano through a wall at university.
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Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


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  #48  
Old 2006-12-02, 10:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
A C with twelve sharps does still not sound like a C. Phisically, this is quite logic. The proportion between a tone and the chromatic second above is 15/16. When we cound twelve sharps at a note, its proportion is 15 to the twelfth power divided by 16 to the twelfth power, which is 129,746,337,890,625 divided by 281,474,976,710,656 and that is less than 0.5, which means that C############ is higher than a C. Therefore, your maximum is not correct.




Some chick told me about this in high school, how it can be used totally blows my mind.
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  #49  
Old 2006-12-02, 15:10
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It is only a theoretical fact. But you can write a piece of music using a scale with all notes sharpened twelve times for strings and brass, which will definitely sound different than a piece with all notes 'clean'. I think the first piece with that scale is still to be written.
But that calculation was not the one that you should read. The one in which I use the 2/3 (distance to the perfect fifth) as the mayn part of the calculation should be read.
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  #50  
Old 2006-12-03, 06:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
Else we get a pool of four clubs: Man U, Chelsea, Barcelona and Man U. Will be quite strange. Can you imagine?
Er, I think you must be talking about football (soccer)... Not one of my areas of interest or expertise unfortunately...
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  #51  
Old 2006-12-03, 06:37
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
It is only a theoretical fact. But you can write a piece of music using a scale with all notes sharpened twelve times for strings and brass, which will definitely sound different than a piece with all notes 'clean'. I think the first piece with that scale is still to be written.
But that calculation was not the one that you should read. The one in which I use the 2/3 (distance to the perfect fifth) as the mayn part of the calculation should be read.
How would such a piece be "written"?
I presume you'd need to specify a tuning standard (whatever the calculation is for 2/3 x12 from concert pitch). And then use ordinary notation?
And in any case, if every note was sharpened the same amount, surely you'd end up with the same (equal tempered) note inter-relationships? Just based on a different concert standard pitch. This would sound the same as normal music, just a little higher in pitch.

Or do you mean every note should be calculated in Pythagorean perfect 5ths (so you end up with pure intonation rather than equal temperament)? Many pieces have been written that way of course, it's just that they are mostly several centuries old...

Or some combination of equal tempered pitches and pure ratio ones?

(Perhaps I'm just not clear what you mean... )
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  #52  
Old 2006-12-04, 04:46
USS USS is offline
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It would be written at the clef with xxxxxx at every note (guess you know what x means).
It will sound thesame as a clean modal scale (for it is pure intonation), but abit higher. It is like having a piano tuned too high for this age. Perhaps the Cxxxxxx will be the clean C in three centuries

Note: I was indeed talking about soccer: the European Champions League. It was just an example to illustrate the fact that we take different notes and lay aside.
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  #53  
Old 2006-12-07, 14:03
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OK! Enough temperament pedantry!

I opened the thread to discuss dodecaphonics! Anyone come up with anything good?! I have a serial work on the way. So far, it has three note-rows in it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatdanny
Also, check out Autopsy, the vocalist sounds like hes about to eat your grandmother while fucking you in the eye. Brutal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by floridadude
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  #54  
Old 2006-12-10, 20:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
....theoretical fact.....

AHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHA!!!!! Go back to your studies, because you are so fucking flawed in grammar.
Quote:
...But you can write a piece of music using a scale with all notes sharpened twelve times for strings and brass, which will definitely sound different than a piece with all notes 'clean'. I think the first piece with that scale is still to be written.

That is impractical for now. Why do you keep implying that enharmonic notes don't exist? I suggest that for the purposes of this thread and the ones involved here, you should keep in mind--for their sakes--that C5 is herein the same exact pitch as C6. In the real world C6 may be a few cents higher, but it complicates things to bring that up. Leave it up to the basis of enharmonic tones.

It would also be a lot easier if you guys explained yourselves with diagrams of your own matrises to prove points.

Stravinsky's Dance of the Adolescent Girls is a good one.
And I'm sure all of you have heard the App. Spring Ballet, the orchestration from '45. That's actually not so much like university music and likable by general audiences.
....I usually dislike post-modern music for the reason that it isn't usually intended for people to listen to.
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Last edited by powersofterror : 2006-12-10 at 21:02.
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  #55  
Old 2006-12-11, 04:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
...Why do you keep implying that enharmonic notes don't exist?...

Because for strings and brass (which I mentioned in the very same line) they DO not exist. They do exist on a piano, a guitar and other limited instruments, yes (look at the calculation in which I showed that a B# is higher than the C. Theoretical experts have been thinking about this while creating the spinet (the precursor of the harpsichord (which is precursor of the piano)) and they made a compromis that we still use, named 'enharmonic equality', which is made to make the instruments play at nearly the right tone with a minimal distance, so you do not have to retune while playing a piece with modulation), but not for these types of instruments, that do not have to retune while playing modulations at all. These instruments play with pure intonation. If they use enharmonic equality, they play false.

I do not know if you have read through all the posts, but it is very clearly mentioned already (for example in the first twenty posts).
It may indeed be not very practical, but what is this forum's name?
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  #56  
Old 2006-12-11, 07:02
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
Because for strings and brass (which I mentioned in the very same line) they DO not exist. They do exist on a piano, a guitar and other limited instruments, yes (look at the calculation in which I showed that a B# is higher than the C. Theoretical experts have been thinking about this while creating the spinet (the precursor of the harpsichord (which is precursor of the piano)) and they made a compromis that we still use, named 'enharmonic equality', which is made to make the instruments play at nearly the right tone with a minimal distance, so you do not have to retune while playing a piece with modulation), but not for these types of instruments, that do not have to retune while playing modulations at all. These instruments play with pure intonation. If they use enharmonic equality, they play false.
Well, depends what you mean by "false".
In contemporary music (I mean all music from the last 200 years or so), every instrument strives for equal temperament, at least when playing in ensembles with other instruments.
Pianos are of course fixed in equal temperament (B# is identical to C), as are guitars, vibraphones, accordions, etc.
Horns are problematic, it's true, as players often have to "lip" notes into tune. (I'm not familiar enough with all wind instruments to know how much this affects them, or whether it's easier or harder to play in equal temperament than in a "pure" key.) Presumably their own key is easiest.) But "in tune" means in equal temperament (to match a piano).
Same with strings. They CAN play in pure intonation - in one key at a time - if they want; but that would only make sense in string ensembles.
In any case, orchestral string players use vibrato which would mask any "out-of-tuneness". Pitches oscillate in excess of any differences between ET and pure intonations.

In any case, on topic, 12-tone serialism depends on equal temperament. Otherwise the note relationships would not be equal in value.
IOW, in a sense you have a point (about an infinity of possibilities), but in practice it's irrelevant.
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  #57  
Old 2006-12-11, 09:34
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No shit, but you're missing the contradiction that Jon just said, again, that you all are talking about atonality, serialism, and the twelve-tone system. There MUST be enharmonic notes for that.

If you want to discuss pitch in the real world, I'd suggest making a new thread because you keep debating this off-topic in a thread about Schoenberg.

You must be blind if you haven't noticed that everyone so far has disagreed with everything you say because of this....
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  #58  
Old 2006-12-12, 03:28
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By 'false' I mean that only the octave on that instrument is perfect.
But in dodecaphonics indeed you do not need any consonant intervals except for the octave, because indeed else the relationship between the notes is not anymore equal, and we will hear some notes being superior to others.
The point I was making was indeed off-topic (which could be a reason to delete every post about this subject; also the only reason everyone was disagreeing about it), but not wrong.
So I agree with the fact that there are 479 001 600 possibilities if we use the notes on the piano and make every instrument play in these ET notes. Pure intonation is used on other pieces of music, but not in dodecaphonics.


So now this problem is solved, we can turn our faces back to Schoenberg and leave this off-topic discussion behind us.
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  #59  
Old 2006-12-12, 08:43
JonR JonR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
By 'false' I mean that only the octave on that instrument is perfect.
But in dodecaphonics indeed you do not need any consonant intervals except for the octave, because indeed else the relationship between the notes is not anymore equal, and we will hear some notes being superior to others.
OK, I think I see what you're getting at. You're saying that there is (or could be) a type of music which uses 12 tones in non-equal temperament. IOW, 12 unequal divisions of an octave.
This would be pretty interesting. How it sounded would depend (of course) on how much - if at all - any of the intervals approximated familiar pure or equal tempered intervals. There would - certainly - be some intervals that sounded more dissonant than others (including intervals of the same number of steps), and it would be hard to write in this system and ignore these effects. And it seems to me the less you ignored such effects, the more you would be writing a kind of tonal music - if a highly dissonant kind.
Even so, I'd guess there's some potential here. (I've no idea if any composer has researched this concept, but I'd be surprised if none have.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS
The point I was making was indeed off-topic (which could be a reason to delete every post about this subject; also the only reason everyone was disagreeing about it), but not wrong.
So I agree with the fact that there are 479 001 600 possibilities if we use the notes on the piano and make every instrument play in these ET notes. Pure intonation is used on other pieces of music, but not in dodecaphonics.
But are you still saying that there is (at least potentially) a form of dodecaphonics that doesn't use 12-TET? This seems to be the sense of the rest of your posts (but not clearly of that last sentence).
I mean, seems to me there could be 12-TET dodecaphonics (as in Schoenberg and serialism); or there could be dodecaphonics starting from some kind of pure intervals (eg 4ths and 5ths), leading to uneven semitones (but with octaves corrected); or there could be dodecaphonics based on some other kinds of irregular 12-step division of the octave, including random ones?
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So now this problem is solved, we can turn our faces back to Schoenberg and leave this off-topic discussion behind us.
Fine with me! (Apologies if I've misunderstood you.)
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  #60  
Old 2006-12-12, 09:59
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hahahha.


Well, I just gave a listen to a schoenberg fugue that was pretty weird.
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