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  #1  
Old 2005-06-23, 19:37
Amon rA's Avatar
Amon rA Amon rA is offline
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classical techniques...help

i know this is a long shot, but its worth trying.

does anybody have any experience with writing classical symphonies?
i need help with techniques of orchestration.
for example, how do you write for 7 sections, each with 15 instrements.
i can do melodies, harmonies, arrangements, all that, but i just dont know where to start. if you're observant, you will have spotted i am having terrible difficulty explaining. um.
how many bass lines do you need? what things will get that massive orchestral sound, do all the double basses play the same thing? do i need to write umpteen harmonies?
what role do the different sections play?
obviously i know about various tones and such, but if you have a shit load of violins playing the main theme, how do you construct a backing which sounds authentic?

also, i know about drones and pedals, but what other things are there?


oh fuck it, not one of these questions is what i really want to know, but im not sure myself what i want to know. so those of you who know something about this, please post your tips/tricks. whatever.
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  #2  
Old 2005-06-23, 19:42
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i mess around with that kind of stuff. but its only chords that the rhythm guitar arpeggiates(dont quote my spelling) and then put a the lead over that.
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  #3  
Old 2005-06-23, 20:12
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  #4  
Old 2005-06-24, 01:02
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I'd say experiment...

I don't know shit about composing classical ensembles and such. I would just take what you know and use alot of harmony within instruments, and melody for the lines. I mean, for example, have the basses harmonize for some part, then maybe melody lines with inversions. I'm sure you know alot more about this shit than me, obviously, ...your actually trying to create classical music, I just think of it in terms of metal. Like the violins you say... playing the main theme. Seems like you can just experiment with consonant and dissonant modes, patterns, or just harmonize within an interval (consonant, dissonant) to the lines of the violin. Sorry I can't really help ya, just offer advice...
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  #5  
Old 2005-06-24, 03:45
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Powers is your man for this - he plays in an orchestra.
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  #6  
Old 2005-06-24, 23:48
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Haha, I know what you want. You want some sort of sweet 'n' beautiful interlude for a particular song you're writing--like something Dimmu or Borknagar would do, right?

well, in that case you don't necessarily need a full 3-5 movement symphony. All you need is a 4-part harmony that lasts for a minute or so. Pick a melody, and put 3 harmonies to it. *shrug*I'm not real sure how else to say it.
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  #7  
Old 2005-06-25, 11:28
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I'd say write all the melody parts in your mind, and then try to figure out which instruments are best to play which parts - thats the thing with that many options in terms of timbre (the color of the sound). Have a violin 'crying' while the tuba 'marches' along the bassline or something, ya dig?
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  #8  
Old 2005-06-25, 15:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
Haha, I know what you want. You want some sort of sweet 'n' beautiful interlude for a particular song you're writing--like something Dimmu or Borknagar would do, right?

well, in that case you don't necessarily need a full 3-5 movement symphony. All you need is a 4-part harmony that lasts for a minute or so. Pick a melody, and put 3 harmonies to it. *shrug*I'm not real sure how else to say it.


almost, i want a ten minute piece or there abouts to play while we set up to build tension/excitement/whatever.
i suppose what im asking is how do you go about getting the full orchestral buildup. its too difficult to listen to each instrement in a large orchestra.

everything iv'e done so far seems empty and thin. i dunno, ill just experiment.
if i get anywhere, ill post it.

thanks for all of everybodys ideas.
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  #9  
Old 2005-09-21, 01:57
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I had the same problem until I lost all my files and gave up....for now.
What seemed to make it more "orchestra"sounding to me,is to do the 4 part thing as explained above.What I did was,say,the strings to play the chords each.1 or 2 notes basically,something like: contrabass copy the cello an oct lower.Cello doin the main bass line.Viola giving the root and third of chord.Violin 1 do the same an octave higher and violin 2 do the 5th of the chord,while being higher than the viola.
Experiment with interval skippin and stuff like so,try to make add9 chords or even more.now,that was for rhythmic ,for melodic line,I used the woodwinds(which I must warn,dont know them or their role as well as strings) like: oboe for high melody and the basic one-note-at-a-time thing.Flutes to harmonize(3rds basically)Clarinet for this thing I dont know what its called(I never learned)where say,the oboes doing 16ths,the clarinet will do 8ths that match every other oboe note,or basically spell chords if this idea doesn't work.Then if you want,get another wind to do the same an octave lower,or even slower notes to build chordal structure.
For brass,I just substituted the strings,but I used power chords and octaves instead of chords to make it heaviersince brass isnt very moody to me.Now the melody would be carried by the strings instead of winds here,where I would use the same kind of thought for brass as I did for strings and winds where I assign one little part to everything.
Now this is my basic idea and thought I gave it MYSELF,therefore,I might not be the way someone that know how will tell you,but it got me satisfied.When I put all this together for a melody I wrote on guitar,it sounded very baroque,specially the thing I explained between the oboe and clarinet.If you want to learn good,I say you look at sheet music,then tab every instrument on guitar pro so you could see what each is playing and how the composer used them.My lil way is reflecting the way a guitarist would write his rhythm track,solo part,harmony,bass line and even synth part.Well,at least I think so cause thats the concept I used.
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  #10  
Old 2005-09-21, 09:29
blizzard_beast blizzard_beast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon rA
almost, i want a ten minute piece or there abouts to play while we set up to build tension/excitement/whatever.
i suppose what im asking is how do you go about getting the full orchestral buildup. its too difficult to listen to each instrement in a large orchestra.

everything iv'e done so far seems empty and thin. i dunno, ill just experiment.
if i get anywhere, ill post it.

thanks for all of everybodys ideas.


What, do you want to write a classical piece for guitar or for an orchestra? If it's the latter, I suggest picking up some sheet music and analysing how different composers have done it, and then trying to implement your own style/melodies into a similar structue. Meh, I dunno. *shrug*.
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  #11  
Old 2005-09-21, 17:00
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the easiest way i found for orchestrating is listening to symphonys and concertos and really listening to tonal or instrumental coloration.

eg. if you want a nice, light or airy feel to it, use only one instrument from each section of the orchestra and keep the music close together, that is, not spread out over many octaves and extreme jumps in registers and shit like that.

start of with only 2 or 3 voices, and add or subtract as you see fit to get what you want. so listening to chamber music, quartets, quintets, etc is a good place to start before moving onto larger works.
also, listen to the greats, imo, beethoven, wagner, vivaldi, sibalius?, liszt, tchaikovsky, dvorak, brahms, stravinsky, rimsky-korsakov, and so on.
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  #12  
Old 2006-03-04, 16:07
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A good thing for if you're trying to create a build up is to listen to the percussion. A lot of the power can come from there.
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  #13  
Old 2006-03-04, 16:18
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i wrote a ballad peice for school. it was sorta like a book
u got the intro basic melody/harmony. rising action building of tension. climax the part where u make the melody and harmony conect to build tension, some disonace to perpare the aww struck falling action, which leads to resolution which basically renforces the first melody. so actually ur gonna have more than one melody. try and stay in a scale but switch through modes and use triads to ur advantage with the harmony. remember each note/chord has a differnt color, so make sure u screw around till u find the sound that fits ur idea the most.
for the climax make sure u use percussion too.
keep the bass line simple and make it be the one thats leading the melody. the bass should also have a nice warm/open tone
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  #14  
Old 2006-03-04, 22:35
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my suggestion is stay with 2-3 rhythms at a time. one rhythm for bass, one rhythm for the tenor n mid sections, and one rhythm for the treble sections. like the trebles going at 16ths, the mids with whole notes and the bass with half notes to keep things going.

have different notes and chord progressions for each rhythm and don't be too afraid of large intervals and small intervals when necessary. Also sometimes when needed play out of key, it helps set up tension and such. i would suggest basses to only have one part because more than one is hard to make not sound muddy unless in octaves.

as for writing I prefer a higher part moving quickly with underlying chord progressions and then bringing in that same quick melody to the lower instruments later in the song to provide difference but familiarity at the same time.
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  #15  
Old 2006-03-05, 06:16
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It is possible to compose everything on your own, but are you going to play all those different instruments on your own?
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  #16  
Old 2006-03-05, 21:06
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ha ha i had forgotten about this.
it got far too time consuming and i never really got anywhere, maybe i'll pick it up again soon.

keep the ideas coming though, this is still interesting
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