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  #1  
Old 2004-12-12, 11:27
MAVERICK MAVERICK is offline
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Relative minor

Each Major Scale has a relative minor, which means 2 different scales with the same notes, but with a different pattern.

Example:
C Major - C,D,E,F,G,A,B,
A Minor - A,B,C,D,E,F,G,

To find the relative minor of a major go a whole and half step back.

To find the relative Major of a minr go a whole and a half step forward.

To practice using these scales apply the 7 modes.

Ionian
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Aeolian
Locrian
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  #2  
Old 2004-12-12, 13:58
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powersofterror powersofterror is offline
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Why didn't you just say minor third? And modes are not minor scales!!!!!!! A mode is an entirely different type of scale than what we call "major" and/or "minor."
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  #3  
Old 2004-12-19, 19:32
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
Why didn't you just say minor third? And modes are not minor scales!!!!!!! A mode is an entirely different type of scale than what we call "major" and/or "minor."



A minor scale IS a MODE. The major scale is also a MODE.

What we call Major = Ionian mode
What we call Minor = Aeolian mode

what we call major and minor are just two of the church modes. Those are the two popular ones that got used the most, so much more that they got associated with the terms major and minor, but......

Each scale also has a classification...

Ionian=major
Dorian=minor
Phrygian=minor
Lydian=major
Mixolydian=major
Aeolian=minor
Locrian=minor(diminished)

Notice a connection to the roman numeral system for chords? Thats a not a coincidence.
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  #4  
Old 2004-12-19, 19:38
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modes are church-scales only used in the middle-ages man, they sound like shit
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  #5  
Old 2004-12-19, 19:46
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
modes are church-scales only used in the middle-ages man, they sound like shit



You don't really know what your talking about do you? We still use those church modes. The major scale IS the church modes. We do infact, still use them. Just today, we only use two of those modes, the other five are only rarely used.

Modes, are starting and ending on different notes in the major scale. They have nothing to do with actual churches, and were invented in the middle ages, but have remained unchanged all through history. All music theory today is still based on this Major scale, which is just the first church mode.

Try looking church modes up in a book or the internet. Learn alittle about a subject before commenting on it, your just talking out your ass.
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  #6  
Old 2004-12-19, 21:35
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the C-C one is indeed the most used one to day, the rest just sounds! like! shit!, it just needs 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2!
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  #7  
Old 2004-12-19, 21:50
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Doctor
the C-C one is indeed the most used one to day, the rest just sounds! like! shit!, it just needs 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2!


every church mode uses 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2

They just start and end at different places. The uncommon ones sound really simular to the common ones as well.

If a riff starts and ends on a note that is not the "key" or "root" note, it is, for the most part, being played with a mode.

If you played an A minor scale, but started and ended on the B note, you think this would sound like shit? Because thats what the church modes are.
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  #8  
Old 2004-12-19, 22:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrashboy
If you played an A minor scale, but started and ended on the B note, you think this would sound like shit? Because thats what the church modes are.

that is exactly my conclusion
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  #9  
Old 2004-12-20, 01:35
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Thrashboy, you must understand that the internet may be a nice an easy way of getting info, but most of the shit here is coming from people who aren't really music theorists. They may be music teachers or people who have somewhat good educations from "guitar teachers" but I can assume they are in no way music theorists. Therefore, they can just as easily be wrong. The professor I am taught from is as much of a music theorist as you can get. His website is called www.bluecomposition.com but it isn't a site to learn theory from. It's more for us to "know what we're doing next tuesday."

But back to the subject. Modes, as I said before, are not the same as what we call "major" and "minor."-and they do not sound like shit in my opinion. Modes were scales dating back from the early Renaissance period when music was starting to make an impact in European countries, especially in France, Germany, and Italy.
When you say that the aeolian scale is just the minor scale of the relative major based on the major 6th scale degree, you are right-in part. That is because major and minor were not even invented until the late Renaissance and'or early Baroque period. Therefore, back then, all was stated was that the key was, "aeolian mode." If the "tonic" note of a piece started on the 5th scale degree [in today's standards] of c Major, in those days the key was considered nothing but "g mixolydian." For example, Gregorio Allegri's famous piece, Miserere Mei, Deus, sometimes is considered to be g minor. But, truthfully, the actual key of this is in the "g dorian mode."
When you say, "every church mode uses 1-1-1/2-1-1-1-1/2," you are very wrong. The fact behind, "WWHWWWH," is just the Major scale. Modes are different. In the key of C major, that being WWHWWWH, the the dorian mode starts on the note D. So how in the world can the C dorian scale be "WWHWWWH?!?!?!" D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D are all natural notes. D to E is a whole step, right, but E to F is only a half step. So it must be WHWWWHW. In the key of D major, the mixolydian scale starts on the note A, so it's A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G-A. But wait a minute...A to B is a whle step, B to C# is a whole step, and C# to D is but a half step. So it looks like your spectacular pattern is a little fucked, don't you think?
Again you are right, but only in part. Modes came first, then we brought the idea of major and minor to make it a little easier. Major and minor also added new scales of course.
I'm not saying you're an idiot either, or attacking your intelligence. It's the internet and "unorthadox teachers" that lead you the wrong way, so it's not your fault at all. I am just correcting you before you make a fool of yourself when you try to explain things on a superior level and be wrong.
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Man, I get real sweaty after I wack my dong. Yeah, cause I headbang while I do, and I can't really "Jump" (haha ) like VanHalen in a dorm room, so I just walk back and forth....haha a couple days ago I was jumping up and down on my bed, with my pants down and my roommate came in when I wasn't looking, hahaha.


This is my band's page
http://www.myspace.com/ferocitydentontx
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  #10  
Old 2004-12-20, 05:46
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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look, they all use WWHWWWH, just they start in different places. duh!

WWHWWWH
WHWWWHW
HWWWHWW
WWWHWWH
WWHWWHW
WHWWHWW
HWWHWWW

its all the same pattern, just started from different places. is that so hard to understand?


and thank you for repeating the EXACT same thing i've said but in a much longer version and then saying i'm wrong. You have said nothing that i didn't, just worded differently. pretty funny actually. i'm sorry if you couldn't comprehend what i said earlier. maybe my english isn't so good or something. lol

Last edited by Thrashboy : 2004-12-20 at 05:51.
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  #11  
Old 2004-12-20, 07:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrashboy
look, they all use WWHWWWH, just they start in different places. duh!

WWHWWWH
WHWWWHW
HWWWHWW
WWWHWWH
WWHWWHW
WHWWHWW
HWWHWWW

its all the same pattern, just started from different places. is that so hard to understand?


No it isn't, and PoT understands this probably more than most here, but you cannot say that all the modes use WWHWWWH because it is simply not true: only one mode utilizes WWHWWWH. We all know the pattern, but the way you describe all the modes as using WWHWWWH is theoretically wrong. This is what PoT was saying.
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  #12  
Old 2004-12-20, 16:52
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
No it isn't, and PoT understands this probably more than most here, but you cannot say that all the modes use WWHWWWH because it is simply not true: only one mode utilizes WWHWWWH. We all know the pattern, but the way you describe all the modes as using WWHWWWH is theoretically wrong. This is what PoT was saying.


all the modes of the major scale use that pattern. they start from different places is all, and this is the same thing that PoT said.

PoT said dorian was WHWWWHW. well guess what! thats the same pattern, just started from the second W and ends on the second W instead of the first one. Is this too easy a concept for you to understand? lol
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  #13  
Old 2004-12-20, 20:13
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powersofterror powersofterror is offline
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You must have missed these words clearly stated in my post...."you are right-in part." I'm just trying to explain to you that "mode" does not mean "minor" and "major." What you are doing is explaining a relationship between major, minor, and mode. Of course, there is a relationship, but they cannot be part of the same scale. By your logic, I can say..."this song is in the key G mixolydian major." That's bullshit, and doesn't make any sense.
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Man, I get real sweaty after I wack my dong. Yeah, cause I headbang while I do, and I can't really "Jump" (haha ) like VanHalen in a dorm room, so I just walk back and forth....haha a couple days ago I was jumping up and down on my bed, with my pants down and my roommate came in when I wasn't looking, hahaha.


This is my band's page
http://www.myspace.com/ferocitydentontx
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  #14  
Old 2004-12-20, 21:36
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
You must have missed these words clearly stated in my post...."you are right-in part." I'm just trying to explain to you that "mode" does not mean "minor" and "major." What you are doing is explaining a relationship between major, minor, and mode. Of course, there is a relationship, but they cannot be part of the same scale. By your logic, I can say..."this song is in the key G mixolydian major." That's bullshit, and doesn't make any sense.



What I was saying is that some of the modes are calssified as minor, and some of them are classified as major, and one is classifed as diminished. Which they are. A mode is classified by the chord that comes from its root.

And you can actually say a song is in G mixolydian major! Now, on the sheet music it would be classified as no sharps. So, technically, it would be in either C or A minor, BUT! You can use the G mixo scale to write a song with. You can treat the G note as your root note. Your tonic chord would be G major, and you could make a chord progression like G, C, Dmin7, G(I IV V)... or G, Emin, Amin, Dmin7, G(I VI II V).... It would sound alittle odd, but it would definetly work. And it has been done before.

Several metallica songs are actually written in various Dorian "keys". If you want I can try and dig up which ones.

True, something like E dorian wouldn't be an "official" key, but it definetly makes sense. It totally works to write songs with modes as your keys, and its a fairly common practice. Its done allot in various styles of metal.
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  #15  
Old 2004-12-21, 02:55
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powersofterror powersofterror is offline
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Well then here is another way I'd explain my viewpoint. ALL Major scales (what major scales are defined as) is WWHWWWH. Minor scales are ALL WHWWHWW. Yes, they may have the same pattern in mode, but that doesn't make it so.

I don't understand this though. "And you can actually say a song is in G mixolydian major! Now, on the sheet music it would be classified as no sharps." How? Modes only sound major[like] or minor[like]. On sheet music, G Major is seen as one sharp in the key signature. ANY relative scale to G Major, will have one sharp in the key signature. For example, G Major has 1 #, E minor has 1 #, C mixolydian doesn't have 1 # in the key signature, but it is still has F# in the scale. And why would you want to say a key is "G mixolydian major" when it's just "G mixolydian?"
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Man, I get real sweaty after I wack my dong. Yeah, cause I headbang while I do, and I can't really "Jump" (haha ) like VanHalen in a dorm room, so I just walk back and forth....haha a couple days ago I was jumping up and down on my bed, with my pants down and my roommate came in when I wasn't looking, hahaha.


This is my band's page
http://www.myspace.com/ferocitydentontx
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  #16  
Old 2004-12-21, 04:18
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
Well then here is another way I'd explain my viewpoint. ALL Major scales (what major scales are defined as) is WWHWWWH. Minor scales are ALL WHWWHWW. Yes, they may have the same pattern in mode, but that doesn't make it so.

I don't understand this though. "And you can actually say a song is in G mixolydian major! Now, on the sheet music it would be classified as no sharps." How? Modes only sound major[like] or minor[like]. On sheet music, G Major is seen as one sharp in the key signature. ANY relative scale to G Major, will have one sharp in the key signature. For example, G Major has 1 #, E minor has 1 #, C mixolydian doesn't have 1 # in the key signature, but it is still has F# in the scale. And why would you want to say a key is "G mixolydian major" when it's just "G mixolydian?"


Actually C mixolydian is C D E F G A Bb. There's no F# in that one.

But D mixolydian has a F#! D mixolydian has the same one sharp key signature as G major and E minor. Look at it this way....

One sharp key signiture. Whats the key? G major or E minor? Well, If G is your root, its G major. If E is your root its E minor. Same key sig, but different keys only because of the note you treat as the tonic. Now what key would it be if you treated the D as the root? D mixolydian! What if I treated A as the root? A dorian! There's actually 7 keys for each key signature.

And true, there really is no need to say something is G mixolydian major. The major part would just be assumed. When talking about keys we normally just call Ionian major, and call aeolin minor. Even though all seven modes have their own major/minor/or diminshed "sound", Ionian and Aeolin are just so much more common then the others that they got the nick names of major and minor. When someone says the key of A minor, they are really saying the key of A aeolin, or actually saying... "The key of no sharps with A as the root".
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  #17  
Old 2004-12-21, 04:30
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powersofterror powersofterror is offline
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I miss-typed...hehe, it's late...
And if you agree then that G mix sounds major, why can't you agree that is only sounds major, and isn't really major?
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Man, I get real sweaty after I wack my dong. Yeah, cause I headbang while I do, and I can't really "Jump" (haha ) like VanHalen in a dorm room, so I just walk back and forth....haha a couple days ago I was jumping up and down on my bed, with my pants down and my roommate came in when I wasn't looking, hahaha.


This is my band's page
http://www.myspace.com/ferocitydentontx

Last edited by powersofterror : 2004-12-21 at 04:35.
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  #18  
Old 2004-12-21, 05:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrashboy
PoT said dorian was WHWWWHW. well guess what! thats the same pattern, just started from the second W and ends on the second W instead of the first one.


Yes, I know. As I stated earlier, we all know the pattern. But you cannot say, for example, that mixolydian uses WHWWWHW because it doesn't. Your exact words were, "look, they all use WWHWWWH." There are six modes that don't use this so this is why saying afterwards that it starts from a different place for each mode only makes you right in part, which is what PoT said.
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  #19  
Old 2004-12-21, 16:43
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
I miss-typed...hehe, it's late...
And if you agree then that G mix sounds major, why can't you agree that is only sounds major, and isn't really major?



Major is not just one certain thing. There are many things in music which are "major". All of which are related to the Ionian mode. But just because all things major are related to the ionian mode, doesn't make Ionian the only thing that is truly major.

Check it out. G mixolydian has the a major third, and a perfect fith. This means the scale the classified as major. In fact, the only interval that is different from the Ionian, or "major" scale is a flatted seventh. Look at your chords. Flatting a seventh doesn't stop something from being major. All 7th chords, like C7 are major, but have a flatted seventh. But its 1 3 5 are major, thus classifying the chord as major. Just as Mixolydian has major 1 3 5, thus classifying it at well as major.

Lydian also has the major 3rd and perfect 5th intervals, thus, it also is a major scale.

Dorian, phrygian, and aeolian all have a minor 3rd and perfect 5th interval, thus, those scales are all minor.

Locrian has a minor 3rd and a diminished 5th, thus, locrian is a diminished scale.

Major means root, major 3rd, perfect 5th. Thats all, nothing more. Any scale or chord or key that has those three qualities is major.
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  #20  
Old 2004-12-21, 16:51
Thrashboy Thrashboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
Yes, I know. As I stated earlier, we all know the pattern. But you cannot say, for example, that mixolydian uses WHWWWHW because it doesn't. Your exact words were, "look, they all use WWHWWWH." There are six modes that don't use this so this is why saying afterwards that it starts from a different place for each mode only makes you right in part, which is what PoT said.


Starting from different places on the same pattern, means they use the same pattern. Your agreeing with me, but your disagreeing with how i'm wording it. If you don't like how its worded then cry me a fucking river and stop being so argumenative.

And no, mixolydian doesn't use WHWWWHW, it uses WWHWWHW.

WHWWWHW would be dorian.
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