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-   -   Preliminary top tabbers list (http://metaltabs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9844)

Cloaca 2005-01-12 04:31

Yeah true. You should be able to see who's giving you ratings then.

andrewc 2005-01-12 19:40

:homer: and then we sneak into his house at night, and bash his head in with a baseball bat.

TranMan 2005-02-02 04:24

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewc
:homer: and then we sneak into his house at night, and bash his head in with a baseball bat.


shut up you little pussy

Cloaca 2005-02-02 04:59

Fuck off, somebody ban this cunt, he just causes trouble.

Father Death 2005-02-02 18:31

we should add a seperate list of top 20 sorted by total number of tabs as well. basically i'm just scared i'm gunna be knocked outta the list soon, which is a damn shame considering the total number of tabs i've done. most of which are actually of good quality too.

Chris Rezendes 2005-02-02 20:22

Quote:
Originally Posted by Father Death
we should add a seperate list of top 20 sorted by total number of tabs as well. basically i'm just scared i'm gunna be knocked outta the list soon, which is a damn shame considering the total number of tabs i've done. most of which are actually of good quality too.


Hahaha, don't be so worried my tabbing comrade. I got knocked out of the top 20 when my score dropped from 30+ to 10.7 overnight. Why worry about how people vote? The voting is arbitrary at best. I'm sure the voting format will be improved, as I do understand Nomad intends to improve it. For now, though, you might as well ignore it. People will vote badly for many different reasons. Some of them will give you a bad vote because they can't play the song you tabbed and feel the need to blame you for their own inadequecy. Some of them will give you a bad vote without even trying to play your tab. Then there are the infamous voters who just give you a bunch of 1s either as a joke or because they are mad at you and think it will bother you. When you take this seriously, you are allowing them to annoy you.

I have my own ideas that I would like to suggest that might improve the tab rating system, but since this thread isn't really for that, I'll save them to myself for now.

philkilla 2005-02-03 01:23

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rezendes
Hahaha, don't be so worried my tabbing comrade. I got knocked out of the top 20 when my score dropped from 30+ to 10.7 overnight. Why worry about how people vote? The voting is arbitrary at best. I'm sure the voting format will be improved, as I do understand Nomad intends to improve it. For now, though, you might as well ignore it. People will vote badly for many different reasons. Some of them will give you a bad vote because they can't play the song you tabbed and feel the need to blame you for their own inadequecy. Some of them will give you a bad vote without even trying to play your tab. Then there are the infamous voters who just give you a bunch of 1s either as a joke or because they are mad at you and think it will bother you. When you take this seriously, you are allowing them to annoy you.

I have my own ideas that I would like to suggest that might improve the tab rating system, but since this thread isn't really for that, I'll save them to myself for now.



Well said.

nomad 2005-02-03 07:41

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rezendes
I have my own ideas that I would like to suggest that might improve the tab rating system, but since this thread isn't really for that, I'll save them to myself for now.

I wouldn't mind if you post your ideas here ;)

Chris Rezendes 2005-02-03 19:48

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomad
I wouldn't mind if you post your ideas here ;)


Okay. Some of the things I'll mention have probably been mentioned before by both other people and by me, so just bear with me here if I get redundant. I've got a bunch of random ideas, you can decide if you like any of them.

First things first- we need a panel of voters. Yes, that's right, a group of people selected to vote for tabs. Now, this idea has many, many options. The biggest question here would be who exactly comprises the panel, right? Well, there are many different ideas here. One option would be that only qualified tabbers could be on the panel. Another option would simply be that you have to be registered to the forum in order to be on the panel. You could also come up with certain requirements. Let's assume for a moment that you would go with the qualified tabber option.

Well, first off, what makes them qualified? There are a lot of options here. You could base it on the number of tabs the person had submitted, or the quality of that person's tabs. This area is probably limited, so lets move on to the idea of general forumers being selected to the panel.

There is a lot more room for options here. I feel that there would need to be certain restrictions here. The restrictions could be based upon many things, including post count, age, or how long they've been here. I think how long a person has been here is more important than either post count or age, but any combination or all three could prove to be worthwhile restrictions. There should be no limit to the number of people allowed onto the panel.

There are other options here, as well. For example, how does somebody become part of the panel? I think it would work better if people weren't automatically selected to the panel, but rather, if they either asked to be allowed in or are invited to join by members of the moderation staff and the existing panel. This would help ensure that only quality voters are allowed in. Naturally, this whole idea could be shaky at first, but would steadily improve and prove it's worth.

I think a new forum should be created to accomodate the voting panel and any problems. For example, if, after the voting panel is already put into use, somebody should still have a problem with people coming in an giving him all 1's, he should be able to voice his concerns in this forum, which should be addressed by a moderator. Perhaps it might also be worthwhile to acknowledge a hierarchy within the voting panel, perhaps there could be a head of it or several people acknowledged as managers or, since this is a forum, perhaps as panel moderators.

Now, people need to be logged in before they can vote, that's a given if you like any of the ideas I've presented. Now people need to know who voted for each tab. How would this work? Well, there are several ways it could work. It could work so that anybody could see who voted for a tab. It could also work so that only members of the panel could see who voted. Perhaps it could be made so that all members of the panel can see with the exception of the tabber himself, if he happens to be part of the panel. Some tabs really are 2's and 1's, so if it's a legitimate vote, perhaps we'd be better off not knowing who gave us a 1, as some of my fellow tabbers are quick fickle folks who might tend to change their opinion of somebody based on how they voted for them. Another idea is that those who are allowed to see the votes would be based on the proposed hierarchy, for example, perhaps only the head of the voting panel can see who voted. A better idea might be to allow all moderators of the voting panel to see.

I have another strong idea for this panel that I like, but admit might be unnecessary. This idea would be for people to explain what they liked or didn't like about any given tab they have voted for. This would ensure that people were legitimately familiar with the tab they are voting for and not just voting for arbitrary or frivolous reasons.

I think the biggest plusses for this idea are that #1. only people who are registered here can vote, assuring that jokers can't just come in from google and fuck around, and #2. somebody or everybody on the panel would be able to see who voted for each and every tab, which would drastically cut down on the number of people who vote out of spite or as a joke.

Another idea I have is that, once the voting panel is implemented, all votes are stricken and we start anew. This would level the playing field, so to speak, to those who unnecessarily view this as a competition of sorts.

I'm very interested in hearing what you think of this. If you like the idea, feel free to add your own ideas, and you can PM me if you want to hammer out any details. I do understand that even if you do like this idea, it would take quite a while for you to be able to implement this. If it is too complicated or unfeasible, perhaps we can dumb it down, so to speak.

Cloaca 2005-02-03 23:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Rezendes
First things first- we need a panel of voters. Yes, that's right, a group of people selected to vote for tabs. Now, this idea has many, many options. The biggest question here would be who exactly comprises the panel, right? Well, there are many different ideas here. One option would be that only qualified tabbers could be on the panel. Another option would simply be that you have to be registered to the forum in order to be on the panel. You could also come up with certain requirements. Let's assume for a moment that you would go with the qualified tabber option.


Yep. We need this.

Quote:
Well, first off, what makes them qualified? There are a lot of options here. You could base it on the number of tabs the person had submitted, or the quality of that person's tabs. This area is probably limited, so lets move on to the idea of general forumers being selected to the panel.
There is a lot more room for options here. I feel that there would need to be certain restrictions here. The restrictions could be based upon many things, including post count, age, or how long they've been here. I think how long a person has been here is more important than either post count or age, but any combination or all three could prove to be worthwhile restrictions. There should be no limit to the number of people allowed onto the panel.


I generally agree with this, but how long they've been here shouldn't matter too much, if:
Quote:
they either asked to be allowed in or are invited to join by members of the moderation staff and the existing panel. This would help ensure that only quality voters are allowed in. Naturally, this whole idea could be shaky at first, but would steadily improve and prove it's worth.


Quote:
I think a new forum should be created to accomodate the voting panel and any problems. For example, if, after the voting panel is already put into use, somebody should still have a problem with people coming in an giving him all 1's, he should be able to voice his concerns in this forum, which should be addressed by a moderator. Perhaps it might also be worthwhile to acknowledge a hierarchy within the voting panel, perhaps there could be a head of it or several people acknowledged as managers or, since this is a forum, perhaps as panel moderators.


Yep, but maybe there should be mods for different genres. It is unlikely that the Voting Panel, even with quite a few members would know whether all the tabs for obscure black metal bands, or Grindcore bands for example, are accurate. Another idea, maybe there should be some sort of "Degree of Difficulty" for a tab, I don't know how this could work, I'm just throwing the idea up.

Quote:
It could work so that anybody could see who voted for a tab. It could also work so that only members of the panel could see who voted. Perhaps it could be made so that all members of the panel can see with the exception of the tabber himself, if he happens to be part of the panel.

Yes, members have been asking for this before, I'd really like to see it myself.

Quote:
I have another strong idea for this panel that I like, but admit might be unnecessary. This idea would be for people to explain what they liked or didn't like about any given tab they have voted for. This would ensure that people were legitimately familiar with the tab they are voting for and not just voting for arbitrary or frivolous reasons.

I'm for this too, but I think that in the "text box" where they'd have to write their reasons you'd get a lot of bullshit posted. And I don't think mods could filter through it all.

Quote:
Another idea I have is that, once the voting panel is implemented, all votes are stricken and we start anew. This would level the playing field, so to speak, to those who unnecessarily view this as a competition of sorts.

DEFINATELY.

So these are my thoughts, if they were to come to fruition it wouldn't be a perfect system, but it would be a lot better and fairer I think.

Chris Rezendes 2005-02-04 01:58

Damn... I forgot to introduce several points entirely. My mistake. Anyway, they mostly revolve around voting efficiency.

Voting efficiency would be acheived by implementing a system where votes register to vote for certain albums, bands, or tunings. For example, I don't listen to Nasum and never will. Therefore, I won't ever vote for a Nasum tab. On the other hand, I do listen to Morbid Angel. Thusly, I could volunteer to rate any Morbid Angel tabs. Now, there are more specifics involved. For example, Morbid Angel's albums and songs come in several different tunings. Perhaps I listen to Formulas Fatal to the Flesh a lot, but I might not be tuned that low, and it might not be possible for me to tune that low with my strings. On the other hand, I'm already in Eb. What does that mean? It means I should register or volunteer to rate tabs for certain Morbid Angel songs tuned to Eb.

Now, how exactly would this work? I'm not entirely sure. It could be something as simple as anytime a tab is posted, somebody volunteers to rate it. It could also be more complicated, but my limited knowledge on web design and coding doesn't allow me to elaborate. I have the ideas in my head, but don't really have a way to articulate it. I'll try anyway.

As an example, there could be a drop down list similar to the drop down list presented to you when you are going to submit a tab. This could be divided similarly to the submission list, for example, band, album, and song. One obvious difference here is that on top of listing every song, there should also be a list on the bottom that represents every song on the album, in case you want to do the whole thing. Another idea is that there is a blank space similar to the space you copy and paste your tab into upon submission, and on this list you type out each song on a particular album you're willing to rate. This would make it easier for somebody who is willing to rate 6 out of 9 songs on an album, because they can't click on "Whole album/every song/all", but they still won't have to go back to individually register every song.

Cloaca 2005-02-04 02:04

Sounds complex, but if Nomad could find a way to do it, that would be cool. However, you should be able to update your registered songs.

Chris Rezendes 2005-02-04 02:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloaca
Sounds complex, but if Nomad could find a way to do it, that would be cool. However, you should be able to update your registered songs.


Naturally, you'd have to. Otherwise, you could only do it once, and it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Perhaps I should have pointed that out as well! I wonder if there are any other details or options I might have left out... If you have any suggestions you might make, or anybody else has any suggestions, go right ahead.

The Doctor 2005-02-04 10:13

i also think there should be different divisions.

i mean; i have a lot of motorhead tabs, they're not that hard, but when i tab em good people vote. In the List i have almost 30 point, right between all the blokes who can figure out the most insane cryptopsy solo's.
That's:
a) unfair
b) a completely different ballgame, see a.

other than that i ofcourse love my high score :)

johnmansley 2005-02-04 10:47

I agree with Chris when he mentions that complexity should be taken into consideration but how this would be integrated into the scoring mechanism I don't know.

EDIT: Whoa, Darkenelf has shot into the lead! He's put on 40+ points in 24 hours.

Chris Rezendes 2005-02-04 11:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
I agree with Chris when he mentions that complexity should be taken into consideration but how this would be integrated into the scoring mechanism I don't know.

EDIT: Whoa, Darkenelf has shot into the lead! He's put on 40+ points in 24 hours.


He's not the only one. My score has jumped back up from like 15 to 30 in the past 3 days. Maybe now instead of jerks who randomly give us all ones, there are jerks going around giving us all fives... no, no, I jest, 'tis a joke.

BTW, I totally agree about the complexity thing. Well, not totally, because I don't want to see things divided. I just think it might be nice for there to be extra points involved due to a particular song's complexity. I'd much rather be recognized for my hard work on songs by bands like Watchtower, Suffocation, Atheist, Monstrosity and the like as opposed to the insanely easy stuff I've done like older Cannibal Corpse, post-1994 Deicide, and Nuclear Assault. Like I said, I prefer the idea of extra points rewarded as opposed to other people being penalized for tabbing easy stuff, unless, of course, it's Anal Cunt. Anybody who wastes their time tabbing Anal Cunt should get all 3's.

Also, another thing I feel strongly about is the tab ratings changing from 1-5 to 1-10. I love the range of 1-10. This way you can give the tab the exact rating you think it deserves. In the 1-5 system, you might think a tab is worth a 9, which would translate to 4.5 Since there is no 4.5, you'd have to either lowball the guy or fellate him unnecessarily. Now, let's say the tab already has a rating. Let's say the rating is 5. Some people would be tempted to give the tab a vote that would purposely skew his whole total to what they think it should be by giving it a 4, making the total 4.5. This is wrong. You should always give the vote you think is fair, and not give the person a lower or higher vote in order to skew his entire total for a song.

Like I said, I have a lot of ideas. I'm sure I have more yet that I've forgotten to mention, when they come to me, I'll be back.

johnmansley 2005-02-05 07:11

Another point is, who decides whether a tab is complex? A beginner may find even the simplest Metallica songs complex and award complexity points accordingly. Maybe the best way to implement this would be to have a separate complexity rating system (from 1-5 in the current system) that would then act as a multiplier on the accuracy rating. I think that maybe this would be the easiest method of implementing extra points for difficult and complex tabs.

I like the idea of the rate of multiplication being psuedo-exponential, ie, the multiplying factor increases by an increasing amount with each step up the complexity scale. As an example you could have the following complexity system and the relevant multiplying factors:

Complexity rating - multiplying factor (increase upon last multiplying factor)

1 - 1.00
2 - 1.10 (0.10)
3 - 1.25 (0.15)
4 - 1.75 (0.50)
5 - 3.00 (1.25)

Obviously, this has two main drawbacks:

1. To get these multiplying factors, Nomad would have to implement an exact formula which will yield all sorts of fiendish numbers as multipliers and this could lead to confusion on how the multiplying factor is calculated. Do most 13-14 year olds even know what the exponential function is? However, I believe that a rounding system would nullify this problem.

2. You would still get beginners rating a song like No Remorse with a 4 or 5. This drawback is harder to eliminate without a moderator imposing his own opinion on the distribution of votes, ie, discounting higher complexity votes for obviously simple songs. However, I'd like to think that a realistic average would be attained if voting carries on as it has in the last week or so, even with the input of none-the-wiser beginners.

Cloaca 2005-02-05 07:50

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
Another point is, who decides whether a tab is complex?


A 'rating' mod(s) (see one of Chris' earlier posts) who has a proven all-round knowledge of the metal genre and has a basic understanding of how complex a song is from hearing it.

johnmansley 2005-02-05 07:59

As far as I'm aware though, none of our tab forum mods are particularly interested in black metal. BM can get complex too, just listen to latter day Emperor. I'd prefer a separate complexity rating which can be used to calculate a multiplier. This way a tabbers score is not dependent on the whim of one or two people but relies more on the 'automated' process of votes from members/visitors. Besides just assigning extra points sounds like a lot of additional work for the mods: in the interest of fairness they'd have to go through and add complexity points to all of the archived tabs.

Chris Rezendes 2005-02-05 08:47

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
Another point is, who decides whether a tab is complex? A beginner may find even the simplest Metallica songs complex and award complexity points accordingly. Maybe the best way to implement this would be to have a separate complexity rating system (from 1-5 in the current system) that would then act as a multiplier on the accuracy rating. I think that maybe this would be the easiest method of implementing extra points for difficult and complex tabs.

I like the idea of the rate of multiplication being psuedo-exponential, ie, the multiplying factor increases by an increasing amount with each step up the complexity scale. As an example you could have the following complexity system and the relevant multiplying factors:

Complexity rating - multiplying factor (increase upon last multiplying factor)

1 - 1.00
2 - 1.10 (0.10)
3 - 1.25 (0.15)
4 - 1.75 (0.50)
5 - 3.00 (1.25)

Obviously, this has two main drawbacks:

1. To get these multiplying factors, Nomad would have to implement an exact formula which will yield all sorts of fiendish numbers as multipliers and this could lead to confusion on how the multiplying factor is calculated. Do most 13-14 year olds even know what the exponential function is? However, I believe that a rounding system would nullify this problem.

2. You would still get beginners rating a song like No Remorse with a 4 or 5. This drawback is harder to eliminate without a moderator imposing his own opinion on the distribution of votes, ie, discounting higher complexity votes for obviously simple songs. However, I'd like to think that a realistic average would be attained if voting carries on as it has in the last week or so, even with the input of none-the-wiser beginners.


Who decides whether the song is complex wouldn't be a problem the way I propose it because it's all part of my panel idea. There simply wouldn't be newbies on the panel, perhaps newbies to the forum, but definitely not guitar newbies. Also, I'd have to be against a 1-5 complexity scale as well, it'd have to be 1-10 in my opinion. Otherwise bands like Suffocation, Atheist, and older Monstrosity would have to be 5's because they are too complex to be 4's, which is an obvious travesty when compared to real 5's like Necrophagist or some Watchtower. In a 1-10, those bands would fit in a 9 niche just nicely, probably 8 for most newer Monstrosity.

It would also naturally go song by song, not band by band. If it goes by band, then anybody could just pick a typically complex band like Monstrosity or Suffocation and tab out an uncharacteristically easy song like "Fragments of Resolution" or "Catatonia". How complex this song is wouldn't be decided by the entire panel, it's head, or it's mods, but, rather, whatever individual panel members happen to vote for the tab.


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