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xdislexicx 2004-09-14 08:31

Originally Posted by Compelled 2 Lacerate
Paiste Rudes would be pretty fucking hard to break just by playing them and zildjian Z customs and sabian metal xs.

you'd think so huh?... well, my drummer has a couple z custom crashes... he just got them like 3 months ago, and his 19" rock crash has a little crack in the middle, which a really weird place for a crack too, so we're suspecting foul play... normally cymbals crack at the edge or around the bell.
but his 18" z custom projection crash is just as old and takes just as much crashing and it's the thinner one so i was totally expecting it to go first. and it's fine.
luckily he has a 2 year warranty on them... he can get it fixed as many times as it takes. or even replaced... the advantage of buying new.

gbsothere 2005-01-27 23:44

Cymbals do break, apparently....
Originally Posted by Dr. Ummer
A while back, I heard something about Paiste making some unbreakable cymbals. Does anyone know anything about that?

I don't really belong on a site like this, I guess, but I was running a Yahoo search for unbreakable cymbals and this link came up. My son plays drums for a metal band called Tony Danza Tap Dance Extravaganza.
(Site URL)
We met him for dinner tonight and that's what we were talking about, the fact that he's broken pretty much every cymbal he has. (He's been breaking them for years, plays heavy.) Did you ever find out if "unbreakable cymbals" really exist?


The Execrator 2005-01-28 00:06

I doubt there is a an unbreakable cymbal on the market. Ya, maybe if you dont hit them as hard. But if you break cymbals all the time, maybe loosen the stands a bit to give the cymbal room to move freely. I would think the more effort they put into making an unbreakable cymbal, the shittier its going to sound.

low-tech 2005-01-28 01:12

bronze is one of the most brittle metals on earth,a combination of copper and tin, all metal has a threshold,nothing it impervious to vibration cracks,dents,heat etc

those titanium cymbals are only plated, the reason why i know, they are heavy,titanium is only as strong as stainless steel, its value is due to its light wieght

all bronze is cast in a mold, nothing longer than a speartip is every forged direct,the whole bronze era came from the advancement of casting methods,not forging. the whole "hand hammered" series of various cymbal companies lents itself to be more of a gimmick, any claim of lost "long lost ancient cymbal making method" is bullshit, its all cast,casting methods are better due to machine automation not hocus pocus alchemy shit, and the fact that some guy took a cymbal out of a cast and beat the cymbal with a ball point does not qualify "ancient method", and in any way that suggests its any different than an automated press speced up to make sound grooves, it wont last longer, it makes no difference

zildjian even makes the claim of putting silver in thier bronze mix<they still tarnish>.the quality of bronze can only be determined by how much the alloy has been recycled<i dont know how this is determined by sight>,most sheet metal around today has been recycled many times and probably was produced around WW2, thats when the world steel production went thru the roof in iron mining, production, output,cymbals made of sheet metal are probably the most recycled, low cost form of metal short of rebar

any cymbal company referencing the ottoman empire and constantinople,which both zildjian and sabian do are totally full of shit

the turks were very good at bronze casting, but not cymbals,cymbals already came to be,were already advanced just about to thier most sophicated method centuries ago, they used bronze for the production of a new invention around the 1400's, siege cannon, they also drained the world market of copper and tin thruout the 15th and 16th century to wage jihad on europe and the far east,they were desperate for bronze, they even took the remians of the colossus in Roades to make cannon, a civilization at the time very tolerent of conquered peoples,laws,costums,archeticture,monuments<they only became cruel during the 18th and 19th centuries> cymbal makings most dramatic advances in ancient times before the industrial revolution come from china and india,period.

just clarifying, i know blacksmiths,metalworks and people who cast bronze, and im well read on greek,turkish history because im a greek, zildjian and sabian are good companies, make good cymbals, they just fabricate myth for advertising, all cymbal advertising is usually complete bullshit, they will never make an unbreakable cymbal, it will hurt thier profits. a good idea is to make a cymbal out of reinforced aircraft aluminum, or pure titanium, but even these will not be unbreakable

rabbifoodslicer 2005-01-28 16:57

Originally Posted by Lamb of god\m/
I would think the more effort they put into making an unbreakable cymbal, the shittier its going to sound.

yeah well look how the titaniums turned out...they suck major balls. when you hit a sheet of metal many and many times overandoverandover with a blunt object, it will brake.

The Execrator 2005-01-28 19:44

Damn low-tech, been studying cymbals lately?

low-tech 2005-01-28 22:53

i live in a artist/loft space in a 100 year old textile mill, up above me is a few wood shops,glass sandblast shop, screen printing shop below me is pewter figurine sentrifudge casting shop<they make those dungeon and dragons figurines, i shit you not>, metal working shops, more woodshops, a bong shop,shipping and recieving shit,discount furniture outlets and a flea market, most other tenents are either hardcore carpenters or masons or students who graduated from the most prominent art school in the country<RISD> with entire departments devoted to casting,sculpture,metalurgy etc.
i gotten to know a few people around here in my 3 years here, got to learn a few things from the viewpoint of builders,craftsmen,proffesionaly trained artists. people whos word and knowledge i prize

i forgot to cite <ancient>egypt as metal working geniuses worthy of mention, ever see the gold coffin lid of tut?, fucking amazing

rabbifoodslicer 2005-01-28 23:53

woe. you, need to learn, to shorten your god, damn, POSTS!!!! i dont have the patients to read all that information about china and egypts cymbal orgy!!!

(, indicates pause)

Soulinsane 2005-01-29 00:07

Originally Posted by rabbifoodslicer
woe. you, need to learn, to shorten your god, damn, POSTS!!!! i dont have the patients to read all that information about china and egypts cymbal orgy!!!

(, indicates pause)

lol, I liked reading it. I don't drum and know just the basics about them but I know metallurgy ( spelling ) from my schools and work. It would have really shocked me if there had been a practical/playable unbreakable cymbal made. There are lots of ways to fabricate metals, but I think the function of the cymbal determines its form, material composition, and also it's inherited property of breaking via cyclic stress. Even aircraft and nuclear reactors develope stress cracks over time from cyclic stress.

low-tech 2005-01-29 02:04

even cymbals made of titanium or aluminum would have problems beyond their ability to withstand abuse. a cymbal that wieghts 2 pounds<as would be with titanium,probably your average crash> would wobble uncontrolable, then you factor in price. aluminum from what i know of track racing bike frames tend to fold around you if you fall over while on one. they simply are not strong like bronze. a wierd exotic space age reinforced alloy would cost too much to want to leave the house with. stainless steel would wieght too much i believe<not sure on that one>.

i guess bronze is our mainstay for now, if you really want to know thier real worth take them to a scrap metal salvage yard and have them appraised. this is why i dont buy splash cymbals, only marked down second hand rides, more bang for your buck. sorry for the long posts

Soulinsane 2005-01-29 02:39

Anyone ever heard of a alloy steel called Inconel? That is some of the best steel in creation to use from things that recieve lots of cyclic stress.... just take my word for it ;) I can't say anymore.

I think that if you could get a cymbal made of the stuff it would last years.

Zereberus 2005-01-29 09:38

My drummer uses the Paiste 2000 series. Hes hade them for about 3 or 4 years now and not one of them has broken yet.

low-tech 2005-01-29 13:45

i dont know alloys well, only the basic metals to some degree where explained to me, ive owned many bmxs and seen track bike frames made out of wierd alloys, im sure there are some metal recipes there good for cymbals, lightwieght but not too light. flexible<proof against vibration, not like bendable> but not too soft. does not corrode. is of a reasonable price to manufacture.

i noticed there are a few things<drum parts,models,cymbals> made in the 60's that last seemingly forever like really big zildjian rides, i attribute this to the whole prefabricated obsoletion factor that prevails nowaday with all industries in america,japan,china. they sure dont make stuff like they used to

Outonbail 2005-01-29 17:50

no such thing as an unbreakable cymbal.. if you play metal or hardcore, the paiste rudes are one of the best cymbals for beating on.. ive seen non-dented/cracked/keyholed rudes from the 80s that are still in great shape.. they just sound like complete ass outside of their specific genres :)

rabbifoodslicer 2005-01-30 23:06

despite all cracking and butt plastering, does it seem like chinas crack easier then normal crashes? i just put a fucken crack in my piggyback cymbal (small china about 7-8 inches) and when it happened i was fucken pissed.

low-tech 2005-01-31 05:55

lnconel is mig welding wire?!? wierd

ive seen those rudes around too, never owned one, maybe worth checking out

Soulinsane 2005-01-31 08:15

Originally Posted by low-tech
lnconel is mig welding wire?!? wierd

ive seen those rudes around too, never owned one, maybe worth checking out

Inconel comes in a few different alloy mixes, but from what I know of it's genernal properties I just thought it would make an awsome cymbal. If it's good enough for nuclear reactors than it has got to be good enought to make a cymbal of it too. The stuff is strong as hell and is made to resist cracking and corrosion.

low-tech 2005-01-31 09:38

your suggestion was excellent soul, i was just thinking of source building materials, i wasnt actually thinking of the welds that holds the structure of metal, mig is just the tip of the iceberg, now i wonder what alloy wire is used in tig,arch,stick,aluminum welding

welds are very important, they have to be good against corrosion and vibration, the weld is the first to go usually in any structure that endures alot of vibration and stress, think about carnival rides, the steel design is structual overkill, but its the welds that are the worry that require constant maintenance and inspection<aside from the whole hydraulics,electrical aspects>

rabbifoodslicer 2005-02-01 16:32

you do realize youre saying that you want to build a solid steel cymbal right?

low-tech 2005-02-01 17:04

i just had a conversation about stainless with my boss, might be good

i was refering to lnconel in that last post, its a variation of different nickel alloys, i believe, amoung other things its the wire used for mig welding, the weld isnt actually the same metal as the structure, i could be wrong so, if your more familiar with welding, by all means, enlighten me, ive only used a mig a few times putting alot of splatter down in my short time with it

another thing is that it may be inconel thats used for only nickel based steels, this is another thing that may be true, idont know, the only thing i do know is that when forging a piece of steel that has a mig weld on it, the weld itself heats up much quicker,becomes more brittle than the steel it binds

either way, i know people who can cast metal,but they dont have the facilities,thier shops are more blacksmith,welding orientated,if i could find someone with a shop that could produce a cymbal, that might be a tempting idea in the future

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