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-   -   Counterpoint Help! (http://metaltabs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36925)

Vittu0666 2007-04-10 19:42

Counterpoint Help!
 
So I'd like to use counterpoint...But I have no idea on how to compose it. All help is greatly appreciated.

JAMF 2007-04-11 03:28

As I understand it, a counterpoint is just another melody played at the same time as a different melody in the same key. I could be wrong though.

guitar_demon 2007-04-11 04:51

basically yes just to melodeis played at same time, but they need to flow together too and not be two completly different melodies that are just playing at once and you dont want them both doing crazy stuff at the same time people will just think its chaos and not pay attention

say you have to melodies A and B
A can start off with some quick licks 16 note arpeggios or whatever, and B can be hanging back a bit playing some qrter or just half notes to take less attention from it without killing it completly. a decent rule is if one gets crazy or does somethign you want people to noticed the other(s) should be less intense not to say that you cant do that a speedy run where people catch up a bar late (think row row row your boat, where each kid joins in after the first two bars)

Vittu0666 2007-04-11 05:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar_demon
say you have to melodies A and B
A can start off with some quick licks 16 note arpeggios or whatever, and B can be hanging back a bit playing some qrter or just half notes to take less attention from it without killing it completly. a decent rule is if one gets crazy or does somethign you want people to noticed the other(s) should be less intense not to say that you cant do that a speedy run where people catch up a bar late (think row row row your boat, where each kid joins in after the first two bars)


Ah yes, a Canon (Row row row your boat)

But for the melodies, do they have to follow a chord progression? I've sat down and analyzed some contropuntal pieces, and they were created around chords. When writing counterpoint, would it be wise to follow a circle of fifths progression? Or just choose any random chords? Should I write melody A first, then have melody B somewhat follow it? Or should I just write two melodies and hope they blend together?

guitar_demon 2007-04-11 06:00

maybe come up with a motf or a theme that they both have a common ground on. as far as chord progression you could just use circle of 5ths to get a hang of it
though im trying to remember this sheet my music teacher once gaveus back in highschool i think it went like this

I-can go anywhere cause its the main chord of the progression
ii- likes to lead to ether a V or a vii
iii- to a vi
iv- to a V or a vii
V- to I (for authentic cadence) or a IV for like 'amen' type ending and i think to a vi for a deceptive cadence
vi- ii or IV
vii- to a I

robbcorpse 2007-04-11 09:11

Holy crap. I'm saving your post to a txt file (the chord progression bit). Thats a good piece of information!

powersofterror 2007-04-11 09:54

Counterpoint is when you have a melody with a counter part...they are not both melodies.

There are rules for counterpoint. When this forum opened I wrote quite a few lengthy threads on counterpoint. Look for those.

The Doctor 2007-04-11 11:50

man, i've had mucho counterpoint classes this year; its insanely complex

powersofterror 2007-04-11 15:52

hahah, are they general counterpoint classes, or do they pertain to a specific era of history? If that's the case, it should be a lot easier. I took two class--16th century counterpoint and 18th century counterpoint--and they were very easy to pass.

On the other hand, you should try taking some Form Analysis and Harmonic Analysis courses from the 3 and 4 thousand level (advanced) courses. Those two are hard......:rolleyes:I believe I've made a thread about it here before asking for help that I could only get from John, who's great at math.

Vittu0666 2007-04-11 22:00

Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
hahah, are they general counterpoint classes, or do they pertain to a specific era of history? If that's the case, it should be a lot easier. I took two class--16th century counterpoint and 18th century counterpoint--and they were very easy to pass.

On the other hand, you should try taking some Form Analysis and Harmonic Analysis courses from the 3 and 4 thousand level (advanced) courses. Those two are hard......:rolleyes:I believe I've made a thread about it here before asking for help that I could only get from John, who's great at math.


They actually have classes on Counterpoint? Ha ha. That's fuckin' insane. I've read up on some of the rules of counterpoint, and it's pretty excessive. Is there any courses on Bach's Fugues? Speaking of Fugues, what makes a Fugue a Fugue?

powersofterror 2007-04-13 09:39

Goooooood question. I did my final in 18th century counterpoint on a Bach fugue.

A fugue is an imitative, contrapuntal (adj. form of the word counterpoint by the way) piece where each voice comes in one after the other. As soon as all the voices enter, a sequence starts....and depending on what the composer wants, do more sequesnces and restate the fugue subject for the end. A fugue is not a cannon.

Gimmi some time and I'll post up the midi version of my finial in the next day or maybe late tonight. Hahhaa, we had musicians play them all at the end of the semester, and mine was like a fucking funeral march. instrumentation was euphonium, oboe, french horn, and trumpet--and the french horn took his part down an octave. You're gonna love it....

Vittu0666 2007-04-13 20:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
Goooooood question. I did my final in 18th century counterpoint on a Bach fugue.

A fugue is an imitative, contrapuntal (adj. form of the word counterpoint by the way) piece where each voice comes in one after the other. As soon as all the voices enter, a sequence starts....and depending on what the composer wants, do more sequesnces and restate the fugue subject for the end. A fugue is not a cannon.

Gimmi some time and I'll post up the midi version of my finial in the next day or maybe late tonight. Hahhaa, we had musicians play them all at the end of the semester, and mine was like a fucking funeral march. instrumentation was euphonium, oboe, french horn, and trumpet--and the french horn took his part down an octave. You're gonna love it....

Wow. That sounds more metal than burning down a fucking church! I'm extremely excited and can't wait to hear it! Thanks for answering the question. I've written a few bars of counterpoint since my last post. I kinda don't like it...it's weird...The left hand (written in piano) isn't doing straight quarters, halfs, etc. It's really random, while the right hand is straight 8th notes. Whichever. I'll work more with it. Hopefully I'll come up with something cool.

powersofterror 2007-04-16 16:44

For the final exam, what we did was take a Bach fugue subject and write a whole new fugue to it. This is mine....I don't know what subject it's from though.....I got like an 86 or something on it, so I guess there are a few mistakes. I was happy enough to be done with the class, so I kinda deleted/didn't look over the teacher's comments on it....oops...

aslkvbiwbegv 2007-04-16 19:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
For the final exam, what we did was take a Bach fugue subject and write a whole new fugue to it. This is mine....I don't know what subject it's from though.....I got like an 86 or something on it, so I guess there are a few mistakes. I was happy enough to be done with the class, so I kinda deleted/didn't look over the teacher's comments on it....oops...


Nice, I can't wait to take that class.

Vittu0666 2007-04-16 21:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
For the final exam, what we did was take a Bach fugue subject and write a whole new fugue to it. This is mine....I don't know what subject it's from though.....I got like an 86 or something on it, so I guess there are a few mistakes. I was happy enough to be done with the class, so I kinda deleted/didn't look over the teacher's comments on it....oops...

Wow. Fucking brilliant! That was really great! 0:44 - 0:50 is my favorite part. Between 1:10 - 1:15 it seemed a little rushed. But you got an 86 on it? Come now! That's pretty harsh! I think it should have been atleast a 92. And that's being mean.

powersofterror 2007-04-17 01:51

Would that be referring to the last sequence? Meh, it was an odd/off beat rhythm and the tempo doesn't change at all...also fugues are non-stop with no breaks.

Shreddist 2007-04-17 03:40

Counter point can be very complex, and it can also be something that you just do naturally without even realizing. Usually, not always, soloing over a chord progression is one form or another of counterpoint.

Wiki has a surprisingly good amount on CP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint

basstendencies 2007-04-17 15:18

great thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
For the final exam, what we did was take a Bach fugue subject and write a whole new fugue to it. This is mine....I don't know what subject it's from though.....I got like an 86 or something on it, so I guess there are a few mistakes. I was happy enough to be done with the class, so I kinda deleted/didn't look over the teacher's comments on it....oops...


cool piece. its dreary ( in a good way), a very metal fugue. :beer:

Unanything 2007-04-19 10:33

Counterpoint ain't hard, or special. It's simply writing two parts that are fairly different, and have a weaving sound. It's not really not something you compose, or a form, it's a feature of music.

I like writing counterpoint. It adds depth.

basstendencies 2007-04-19 14:11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreddist
Counter point can be very complex, and it can also be something that you just do naturally without even realizing. Usually, not always, soloing over a chord progression is one form or another of counterpoint.

Wiki has a surprisingly good amount on CP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterpoint


very suprising, thanks for the heads up.


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