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-   -   NMPA letter. Tabs are down. (http://metaltabs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36913)

johnmansley 2007-04-11 03:46

The idea behind copyright law is that a musician's right to income is protected. Logically, if no income is derived from tab book sales due to no such book existing then there is no income to protect.

The NMPA's jurisdiction in our case should only extend to songs that have published transcriptions. I fail to see how the remainder of tabs on this site are subject to copyright legislation. It smacks of denotating a nuclear device in order to destroy a bee hive.

fatdanny 2007-04-11 06:54

Oh for fucks sake. This is shit.

RedScorpion 2007-04-11 07:07

Its the end of it. Look at msb, they got contacted a year ago or so about this and their tabs still havent been made available anew

FilthyCadaver 2007-04-11 07:18

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
The idea behind copyright law is that a musician's right to income is protected. Logically, if no income is derived from tab book sales due to no such book existing then there is no income to protect.

The NMPA's jurisdiction in our case should only extend to songs that have published transcriptions. I fail to see how the remainder of tabs on this site are subject to copyright legislation. It smacks of denotating a nuclear device in order to destroy a bee hive.

So the best solution is to simply remove either the bands with tab books or those under the NMPA's jurisdiction.

johnmansley 2007-04-11 07:49

The problem is that the NPMA consider the whole site as falling under their jurisdiction.

KthalEhthrek 2007-04-11 07:59

Ever see those copyright commercials in the beggining of some movies?
I just had a funny thought

You wouldn't keep a movie rental, would you?
You wouldn't take someone's purse, would you?
You wouldn't jack a car, would you?
You wouldn't transcribe songs to tablature, would you?

Tablature is Stealing.

ZRO 2007-04-11 08:21

What the fuck?

NMPA can shove it, bitch.

Infinity 2007-04-11 08:37

Quote:
Originally Posted by KthalEhthrek
Ever see those copyright commercials in the beggining of some movies?
I just had a funny thought

You wouldn't keep a movie rental, would you?
You wouldn't take someone's purse, would you?
You wouldn't jack a car, would you?
You wouldn't transcribe songs to tablature, would you?

Tablature is Stealing.

lol

JOAMdude 2007-04-11 09:22

johnmansley and sycophant and TM and teh nub should defend our case
then NOMAD will stab MNPA in the throat

Darkenelf 2007-04-11 09:47

it is so strange that this is illegal...

first, all tabs are not from existing bandmembers...
second, are those tabs not kind of promo material for bands, this way bands got known better... people might buy CDs, go to concerts...
third, all tab text files cannot be heard... so why is it illegal...

there are 100000s of tabsites... why are the tabs in this site closed for public?, (first of all it's metal...almost no-one listens to metal...)

maybe 1% of all music listeners...


It is strange, it's all about money for that organization... that they can get profit, for closing such sites...

very lame

:mad:

tmfreak 2007-04-11 10:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenelf
it is so strange that this is illegal...

first, all tabs are not from existing bandmembers...
second, are those tabs not kind of promo material for bands, this way bands got known better... people might buy CDs, go to concerts...
third, all tab text files cannot be heard... so why is it illegal...

there are 100000s of tabsites... why are the tabs in this site closed for public?, (first of all it's metal...almost no-one listens to metal...)

maybe 1% of all music listeners...


It is strange, it's all about money for that organization... that they can get profit, for closing such sites...

very lame

:mad:

The mpa doesn't make money by closing sites first of all. The probably spend bizzilions of dollars just printing out and mailing cease and dissist letters.
Also regardless of what you feel the indirect effect of tab sites is, is pretty trivial to the fact of the matter. It effects tab book sales and protecting an artists "right" to protect how their material gets reproduced. Also what does former bandmembers have to do with anything? And yes band members HAVE submitted tabs. Nearly all the At the Gates tabs were from one of the guitarists. Also in context to promotion. When did the band say it was ok for you or somebody else to reproduce their music via a bunch of dashes and numbers to promote their music? Its similar to people making knock off tshirts and selling them. Sure it adds that extra bit that the person is making money, but aren't those tshirts representing and promoting the band? In turn seeing more shows, cds, and blah blah blah even if they aren't making a direct commission off the tshirt sales?

Also John Mansley: Don't you think that if there weren't the compition with tab sites there would be a drastic increase in demand for tab books by artists? Therefore making production of tab books and giving artists more money for their music than they do now. Because of the compition from tab sites (right or wrong) there is little reason for a band to produce tab books, therefore this "is" income to protect, and thats income thats not able to come in on their own material even if they attempted to. If you see the point i'm attempting to derive. A monopoly over the market via free trade of tablatures.

I'd say money is only a side product of copyright protection. Its literally what it says. Copying protection. Its preventing a person from outside of the bands control from reproducing and disseminating "their" material without their knowledge and consent. Hell its almost not even up to the band either, more like Labels in which the music was originally produced on.

Also why is it somehow better to protect "classical" and "baroque" composers music than to protect another bands music? This is just a question posed to stir up thoughts. Is it somehow fundamentally ok to ear tab and hand out copies of other bands music where as doing that for say Vivaldi, Bach, or Beethoven's music is not?

It appears to me that no matter how "logical" one attempts to break it down thats almost never going to solve a case like this or even produce much ground work. If one wants to one could break down the entire "process" and it would appear to be just a bunch of fucking ascii "art" that just happens to mean something in combination with guitar/bass/drums.

The only real way i can see to attack this by some sort of court decision deciding that the transcripition of ear translation to notes is free domain. That the combination of notes even if its from a song produced by a band is free domain to the public. Which, it probably should be. This would remove all bullshit "copyright" stuff people put on tabs, which shouldn't even be there anyway. Nobody gave anybody (for the most part) the right to put that nonsense on there as it is.

Just a simple statement or understanding that this happens to be "similar" to a bands work and that YOU, YOURSELF produced and wrote the tab.

ImBored 2007-04-11 10:36

oh well im sure itll work out and in the mean time youve all got some drama

Def 2007-04-11 10:57

I'de like to see what UG does, I've been a mod there for years and Eugeny (the owner) will definetly take it up.
Let's first see what happens there. Does anyone know of any record of previous legal battles between tab websites and these guys?

These guys are like organised crime. And organisation of rich fucks afraid to lose a bit of money on their copyrighted songs. Just look at their personal profiles, what a bunch of wankers.

problematic 2007-04-11 10:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOAMdude
johnmansley and sycophant and TM and teh nub should defend our case
then NOMAD will stab MNPA in the throat

They are just internet lawyers.

Infinity 2007-04-11 11:01

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
Sure it adds that extra bit that the person is making money, but aren't those tshirts representing and promoting the band? In turn seeing more shows, cds, and blah blah blah even if they aren't making a direct commission off the tshirt sales?

.


We aren't making money from tabs though, and clearly we aren't stealing it from the bands considering about 10% or less of the bands on this site actually have tab books. I've spoken to many bands I've tabbed through email etc. and they are more than happy to have me make tabs for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
Also John Mansley: Don't you think that if there weren't the compition with tab sites there would be a drastic increase in demand for tab books by artists? Therefore making production of tab books and giving artists more money for their music than they do now. Because of the compition from tab sites (right or wrong) there is little reason for a band to produce tab books, therefore this "is" income to protect, and thats income thats not able to come in on their own material even if they attempted to. If you see the point i'm attempting to derive. A monopoly over the market via free trade of tablatures.
.


Thats bullshit. Your point can possibly relate to about half of the thousands of bands hosted on the internet. Can you imagine Vlad Tepes releasing a tab book? Birdflesh? Ulver? December Wolves? Rompeprop? Repulsion? All these bands have dedicated but small underground followings, the money put into tab books would be a complete waste, money time and effort, printing, authoring. And what about bands like Repulsion that have recently seen a surgence of tabs by fans, but are actually defunct? Is the lead singer gonna call up and go "Hey Mike, yeah, it's me, Joey, how's shit been? Yeah sorry I havn't called for 20 years, but wanna release a tab book? Yeah? YEAH? AWESOME!". And what a dumb point to make about if there are tabs what is the point of tab books. People will always buy official merch. People will always make mistakes in tabbing anothers song. If a band is searching the internerd looking for its own tabs and sees a bunch of bullshit or mistake ridden tabs it's not gonna go "Well gee man, looks like our fanbase can't play guitar anyway, we better not release a book!" but it is gonna go "Wow, look how hard they tried, lets get some official tab books happening!" And again only the bigger bands are gonna do that anyway.

Pr0az 2007-04-11 11:02

Quote:
Originally Posted by problematic
They are just internet lawyers.


Correct... most of the people bitching and crying about the tabs being down have under 50 post...i mean shit there are a hell of alot more tabs sites to go too. Hopefully everything will work out for us here without any trouble however.

Darkenelf 2007-04-11 11:02

why are bands adding these bandtabs to their websites then? which I have tabbed??

is there any discussion going to those metal bands, why tabs cannot be made?

I know popular bands are complaining, but I never heard metal bands are complaining...

and there are not many people who buy tab books, even if these tabs are gone... still nobody buys it...

then next thing, some bands don't exist anymore, do'n have any merchandise, don't have websites, don't live anymore...

and still tabs of those bands are forbidden, why is that then?

Def 2007-04-11 11:04

Quote:
Originally Posted by problematic
They are just internet lawyers.

I'm a real one. But I know jackshit about copyright laws ;)

Actually, I'm a bachelor in laws, have my masters in a different area. Shame Dutch laws don't really apply. In that case most problems are solved with a Heineken at the table. ;)

Darkenelf 2007-04-11 11:05

well ill ask a friend of mine, he is into this shit too... lol

Def 2007-04-11 11:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmansley
The NMPA's jurisdiction in our case should only extend to songs that have published transcriptions. I fail to see how the remainder of tabs on this site are subject to copyright legislation. It smacks of denotating a nuclear device in order to destroy a bee hive.


I agree, I think they just assume everyone will listen to their threats and help them out that easily.

It's not like every webmaster can afford to get into a legal battle with them.


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