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-   -   Scales,Arpeggios and Modes Question? (http://metaltabs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36439)

God-Free 2007-03-19 12:32

Scales,Arpeggios and Modes Question?
 
The C Harmonic Minor scale is the only scale i currently know since ive been playing for roughly 6 months. I have a complete lack of knowledge of theory so sorry in advance for insulting anyone (im learning). What Arpeggios and Modes can be played with this scale and what other Chords can be found in this scale?

tmfreak 2007-03-19 16:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Free
The C Harmonic Minor scale is the only scale i currently know since ive been playing for roughly 6 months. I have a complete lack of knowledge of theory so sorry in advance for insulting anyone (im learning). What Arpeggios and Modes can be played with this scale and what other Chords can be found in this scale?


I think you need to startt wih the bottom up. You're already going in the very wrong direction with learning theory, in my opinion. If you had been playing for awhile i would say something else but since you just started.

You need to learn how to walk before you run. Learn the C Major scale, the C minor scale, learn the basic chords of guitar, learn what a mode is since you say you don't know scales and modes are ACTUALLY scales.

robbcorpse 2007-03-19 19:03

Well ya can't blame him for wanting to learn a really fun scale :)

But yea take a step back and start with the basics. Understand the Major scale, how it's constructed, how you can build chords out of it. A good understanding of the major scale can take you very very far since it's quite common to derive other scales from the major scale. Pickup some basic chords and chord progressions and think about how they are related.

Then you can branch out a bit, ya know?

Remember to have fun with it, learn a little each day don't make it a chore or an exhausting exercise. You'll find in your day dreaming you're thinking about theory and you're searching for the nearest computer because you want to double check yourself :P

God-Free 2007-03-19 22:29

Ah yeah I kind of figured i had got ahead of myself. When i first started i was learning Black Dahlia Murder songs and had heard that they play along the Harmonic Minor scale so basically i wanted to see the songs i was playing in that scale.

I do know that Modes are scales themselves C Phrygian was the one I have been learning. (Once again because I had heard is was popular among death metal) Gathering what I could from this site and others I m under the impression that the majority of sweeps are done along Arpeggios but not limited too. Is this true? Because Iíve been having a absolute blast learning sweeps and wanted play some legit ones that relate to the scale I know (Harmonic Minor).

Hahahah I donít know as if I actually asked any questions above, just kind of mumbled. I do know Basic Chords although they bore the shit out of me. Where do I go with them from here? And where could I find some good information on Chord Progressions? I shall focus on some more basic scales.

Thanks Dudes!

tmfreak 2007-03-19 23:24

Technically an arpeggio is a "chord" played out in individual notes.

So yes you could say the majority of sweeps are arpeggios. But then again apples to oranges. Sweeping is a picking technique, it has nothing to do with theory hah.

Yes Black dahlia murder plays in C harmonic minor and also F harmonic Minor.

Until you feel you've actually mastered the feel of the different keys/scales on the fretboard i would relax about other things. It would appear that knowing where to move and go smoothly is probably oneo f the most important things.

But hell you said you just started, at 6 months in you'll need a hell of alot more basic musicianship before getting indepth in theory or technique.

JonR 2007-03-20 10:16

WARNING: TOO MUCH INFO approaching... :eek:

Here's a comparison of various scales in half-steps.
You can test them out by playing them up one string (each fret is a half-step, as you probably know :rolleyes: )

This is not about technique, of course - you wouldn't actually play a scale just on one string! - but about seeing the structure and hearing the sounds, how the notes relate to the scale root.

The numbering convention relates to the major scale (considered the basis of all western music, familiar to most of us as "do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do"). We call that one 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, so other scale types contain flat or sharp alterations. The more flat notes, the "darker" the sound.
(You'll see that Lydian is the only scale brighter than major.)
Code:
HALF-STEPS: | | | | | | | | | | | | | frets: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 MAJOR: R . 2 . 3 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 R (aka ionian mode) MAJOR PENTATONIC: R . 2 . 3 . . 5 . 6 . . R AEOLIAN: R . 2 b3 . 4 . 5 b6 . b7 . R (natural minor) MINOR PENTATONIC: R . . b3 . 4 . 5 . . b7 . R (standard rock solo scale) BLUES SCALE: R . . b3 . 4 b5 5 . . b7 . R HARMONIC MINOR: R . 2 b3 . 4 . 5 b6 . . 7 R other major modes: MIXOLYDIAN: R . 2 . 3 4 . 5 . 6 b7 . R LYDIAN: R . 2 . 3 . #4 5 . 6 . 7 R other minor modes: DORIAN: R . 2 b3 . 4 . 5 . 6 b7 . R PHRYGIAN: R b2 . b3 . 4 . 5 b6 . b7 . R "half-diminished" mode: LOCRIAN: R b2 . b3 . 4 b5 . b6 . b7 . R Some other cool scales: PHRYGIAN DOMINANT: R b2 . . 3 4 . 5 b6 . b7 . R (5th mode harmonic minor) DOUBLE HARMONIC: R b2 . . 3 4 . 5 b6 . . 7 R (used on "Misirlou")

...and some jazz scales (just in case, by some bizarre mischance, you're interested... :rolleyes: ):
Code:
MELODIC MINOR: R . 2 b3 . 4 . 5 . 6 . 7 R ALTERED: R b2 . #2 3 . b5 . #5 . b7 . R (7th mode melodic minor) LYDIAN DOMINANT: R . 2 . 3 . #4 5 . 6 b7 . R (4th mode melodic minor) W-H DIMINISHED: R . 2 b3 . 4 b5 . #5 6 . 7 R H-W DIMINISHED: R b2 . #2 3 . #4 5 . 6 b7 . R WHOLETONE: R . 2 . 3 . #4 . #5 . b7 . R PHRYGIAN major 6: R b2 . b3 . 4 . 5 . 6 b7 . R (2nd mode melodic minor) LOCRIAN major 2: R . 2 b3 . 4 b5 . b6 . b7 . R (6th mode melodic minor)

Once you know these scale structures, you can work out your own patterns across the strings, either by matching notes by ear, or by taking a pattern you know, and raising or lowering whatever notes are necessary.

The important thing is the root (or tonic), and the other notes' relationships to it.

Chords - a MUCH bigger subject! - can be derived by taking alternate steps of a scale. (Any scale apart from the pentatonics.)
Start from any note, call that the 1st (the root of the chord), and take the 3rd and 5th notes up from there. This will give you 7 chords per scale - if the scale has 7 notes! You will get a mixture of major, minor and diminished chords (and augmented chords from harmonic and melodic minor).
(Because of their repetitive symmetry, the diminished and wholetone scales only give you two different chords each...and each one is the same type.)
With the jazz scales, only the chord harmonised from the scale root note is relevant (but that can include 7th and 9th, and maybe 11th and 13th, counting up in 3rds beyond the octave (8th)).

robbcorpse 2007-03-20 11:23

Awesome JonR, very informative and a great read as well!

I just wanted to note, even though it might be obvious to others, to be aware these are single string scales so if you play the major scale on the E string as it is above starting on open E string, you get E Major. Obviously, bring that pattern down a string and you've got A Major starting on the open A string. Move the pattern to say the third fret on the E string and you've got G Major.

I dunno for some reason that wasn't obvious to me when I first started to dabble in theory.

Chord Progression theory is all over the place, wander over to http://www.wholenote.com/ and punch in "chord progression". Should be a few articles to get your feet wet.

God-Free 2007-03-20 12:10

wow! thanks man. that was informative and easy to understand. definitely going to be messing around with this stuff everyday.

Unanything 2007-03-20 13:59

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
I think you need to startt wih the bottom up. You're already going in the very wrong direction with learning theory, in my opinion. If you had been playing for awhile i would say something else but since you just started.

You need to learn how to walk before you run. Learn the C Major scale, the C minor scale, learn the basic chords of guitar, learn what a mode is since you say you don't know scales and modes are ACTUALLY scales.


Nah, the dude's doing fine. That's the exact direction I took. Learn some obscure stuff then close in on normal stuff, should actually make quite an explorative guitarist out of you if you ask me.

And that's dumb what The Black Dahlia Murder do, playing the scale in specific roots. You are going to get ideas recurring VERY quickly.

Arpeggios/chords in harmonic minor?

From looking at it, if the root is A, you can get:

Code:
A m A m maj 7 A sus 2 A sus 4 B dim B dim 7 C aug D m D dim D dim 7 D sus 2 D m 7 D m 6 E maj E aug E aug 7 E 7 E sus 4 F maj F maj 7 F m F m maj 7 F dim F dim 7 F 6 F m 6 G# dim G# dim 7 G# aug


Although some of these chords overlap, like the augmenteds.

The 'official' chords of each scale are:

Code:
A m B dim C aug D m E maj F maj G# dim


Have fun! :D

Oh, and the major scale, or chord anyway, is considered the centre because it is the most natural resonance in the world. The natural harmonics of strings are the tones of the major chord.

tmfreak 2007-03-21 12:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unanything

And that's dumb what The Black Dahlia Murder do, playing the scale in specific roots. You are going to get ideas recurring VERY quickly.


its not just black dahila murder. Nearly every band does this. Like 99.9% of bands might pick like 3 or 4 scales and make songs off them, usually banking off of one for the majority of their songs. (Unless you are some progressive band i don't see the purpose of going all over the map with different keys and scales)

I'm not saying reoccuring ideas don't come up because that is definitely one large problem with sticking to a set sound and what not. (Thats generally what sticking to a scale or key will do to you)

Thats why now and again i'll be like i'm gonna do... X random scale and i'll usually come up with new ideas to produce a song. I'll hear what it sounds like then all of a sudden almost instantly have an idea thats new and fresh from my usual stuff.

Unanything 2007-03-21 12:34

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
its not just black dahila murder. Nearly every band does this. Like 99.9% of bands might pick like 3 or 4 scales and make songs off them, usually banking off of one for the majority of their songs. (Unless you are some progressive band i don't see the purpose of going all over the map with different keys and scales)

I'm not saying reoccuring ideas don't come up because that is definitely one large problem with sticking to a set sound and what not. (Thats generally what sticking to a scale or key will do to you)

Thats why now and again i'll be like i'm gonna do... X random scale and i'll usually come up with new ideas to produce a song. I'll hear what it sounds like then all of a sudden almost instantly have an idea thats new and fresh from my usual stuff.


I know, but for a band that have interest in scales, and quite often have a very scalic sound. But you know what I mean, sticking to the same root or key. It's especially narrow when you are conscious of and deliberately using scales.

Anyway, what do we think of the chords I worked out?

God-Free 2007-03-21 13:54

Thank you for all the Chords... im siked its definitely going to open up alot of different options with the Harmonic Minor scale. now i just need to learn Harmonic Minor in other keys which shouldnt be too difficult since i do know it all over the fret board in a Key of C. It might take some time because i want to figure it out for myself rather then just look up a tab for say G Harmonic Minor.

I've noticed that most of the songs of Black Dahlia Murder that i have learned from tabs are in E Harmonic Minor. (Until The Last Grave Has Emptied, Elder Misanthropy and Closed Casket Requiem) Am I wrong? and they do sometimes go out of scale, is this legit? and do most bands do that?

Hahaha sorry i keep going on about The Black Dahlia Murder, makes me sound like i worship them or something... i just figured they'd be a good introduction to learning metal and now since i know a few of their songs im trying to figure out how they were writen.

robbcorpse 2007-03-21 17:45

This has been a really informative thread for me as well, thanks guys!

Question though, how do you go about learning a new scale in a new key? Say for example you knew the A blues (or within this thread context C harmonic Minor) how do you go about learning the new key?

davie_gravy 2007-03-22 09:45

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbcorpse
This has been a really informative thread for me as well, thanks guys!

Question though, how do you go about learning a new scale in a new key? Say for example you knew the A blues (or within this thread context C harmonic Minor) how do you go about learning the new key?


Transpose. The 'shapes' are constant. If you know A blues... move that whole pattern up 2 frets and you're playing B blues, one more fret would be C blues... etc...

robbcorpse 2007-03-22 10:12

Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
Transpose. The 'shapes' are constant. If you know A blues... move that whole pattern up 2 frets and you're playing B blues, one more fret would be C blues... etc...


How about for learning it across the fretboard? Take the shape, find the root, construct the shape and play?

Unanything 2007-03-22 12:53

Quote:
Originally Posted by God-Free
Thank you for all the Chords... im siked its definitely going to open up alot of different options with the Harmonic Minor scale. now i just need to learn Harmonic Minor in other keys which shouldnt be too difficult since i do know it all over the fret board in a Key of C. It might take some time because i want to figure it out for myself rather then just look up a tab for say G Harmonic Minor.

I've noticed that most of the songs of Black Dahlia Murder that i have learned from tabs are in E Harmonic Minor. (Until The Last Grave Has Emptied, Elder Misanthropy and Closed Casket Requiem) Am I wrong? and they do sometimes go out of scale, is this legit? and do most bands do that?

Hahaha sorry i keep going on about The Black Dahlia Murder, makes me sound like i worship them or something... i just figured they'd be a good introduction to learning metal and now since i know a few of their songs im trying to figure out how they were writen.


Don't memorise it on the fretboard, like what fret and stuff.

You are better remembering the shape of the scale on the fretboard and the order of the intervals. Therefore you don't have to depend on what key you are in. What if you change tuning, or are just in another? Or are just in another key?

I can often finish a phrase by sliding down or up harmonic minor simply because I know the intervals as opposed to where it si in a key.

God-Free 2007-03-22 22:39

ah yes this is how i know the scale by the shapes not by the notes. I just move the shapes i know to fit a different key so i move the shape i know in C to the Fifth fret and i have A Harmonic Minor. Is this Incorrect? Im beginning to under stand intervals now that i've gathered some information on the major scale.

I wondered that about tuning. So if i put my guitar in in C standard i would be playing the shape of C Harmonic Minor that i know on the 8th Fret at the open position?

Dudes Thanks again... This has seriously gave me a huge jump start into understanding the proper use of scales, chords, and arppeggios!

davie_gravy 2007-03-23 10:05

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbcorpse
How about for learning it across the fretboard? Take the shape, find the root, construct the shape and play?


They all move. For example, every pentatonic shape moves according to key. If you know Em pentatonic across the board, move every shape up 2 frets and you now know F#m pentatonic across the board. The key is the shapes are constant, it's the position you play them at that moves (according to key).

robbcorpse 2007-03-23 11:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
They all move. For example, every pentatonic shape moves according to key. If you know Em pentatonic across the board, move every shape up 2 frets and you now know F#m pentatonic across the board. The key is the shapes are constant, it's the position you play them at that moves (according to key).


Ah yes this makes sense. I probably knew this but just didn't think about it correctly. Thanks!

tmfreak 2007-03-24 13:04

Yeah this is definitely how i now go about it. For instance last night i was shit faced playing my friends guitar while i was trying to do some improv lead over some random song he was playing. He asked me what key it was in (obviously i have no fucking clue haha) so i searched for that "age old" shape that i know how to find a root note. (of a minor scale)

This is the shape that i got memorized.

1--------3----4
1(R)----3----4

if that makes sense. Basically if you play this right here on any of strings (other than the "b" string) it will give you the minor key.


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