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-   -   melodic minor in metal (http://metaltabs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34004)

rhoads81 2006-11-20 22:33

melodic minor in metal
 
I just started learning the melodic minor scale recently and im having a hard time using it while soloing. So can anybody give me some pointers on this scale and/or name some bands and songs that use this scale that i can listen to so i can get a feel for this scale and see how it is applied in the context of a song.

Transient 2006-11-21 00:07

are you kidding? just about anything in the melodic death metal scene uses it extensively

tmfreak 2006-11-21 00:13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient
are you kidding? just about anything in the melodic death metal scene uses it extensively


Not really.. I hardly ever use it, and i don't see it used that much, or can even name one example of it being used.

Harmonic minor.. eh maybe. but even that depends, and i haven't really heard it THAT much. Melodic minor.. i doubt it just because it has a very major sound to it.

Transient 2006-11-21 00:17

whoops, i meant harmonic

this is why i stay out of theory

tmfreak 2006-11-21 00:38

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient
whoops, i meant harmonic

this is why i stay out of theory


haha Well isee why crowned sucks so much..... No theory knowledge.. PFFFFF :p

I solid use of harmonic without it seeming to be too over used is Absence. Nearly every song htey have is in C minor.

To be honest to further answer the question the guy is asking. I would seriously look at what tuning you want to play guitar in beacuse that can really break or help what keys you use. I mean you dont' HAVE TO use this, but trust me it fucking helps writing music to stay in a similar or usable key to your tuning. For instance. Drop C or C standard tuning using C minor, C harmonic minor. This is a good solid place to start. I play in Drop C and i base alot of my music around C minor, but i also use alot G minor and D minor (doing alot of pedal point using the g string, in drop c)

davie_gravy 2006-11-21 02:26

Melodic minor is widely used in jazz. Just look up bands like Sleep Terror or Cryptopsy. I would believe they prob utilize this scale in some form. The key is that it's still minor. You just have a major 6th and 7th instead of minors. That will get you all different chords. Just build some triads to get a feel of what the chords are like and go from there.

tmfreak 2006-11-21 03:43

Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
Melodic minor is widely used in jazz. Just look up bands like Sleep Terror or Cryptopsy. I would believe they prob utilize this scale in some form. The key is that it's still minor. You just have a major 6th and 7th instead of minors. That will get you all different chords. Just build some triads to get a feel of what the chords are like and go from there.


I'm gonna officially say you probably know way too much about theory for guitar. :p (not from this post, but every post you've ever made in this forum haha)

davie_gravy 2006-11-21 15:57

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
I'm gonna officially say you probably know way too much about theory for guitar. :p (not from this post, but every post you've ever made in this forum haha)


I've always been bound to the science of how things works and why. Guitar and theory are no different. Appreciate the compliment! Maybe one day they'll let me mod this section ;)

k13m 2006-11-21 18:44

Quote:
Originally Posted by davie_gravy
Melodic minor is widely used in jazz. Just look up bands like Sleep Terror or Cryptopsy. I would believe they prob utilize this scale in some form. The key is that it's still minor. You just have a major 6th and 7th instead of minors. That will get you all different chords. Just build some triads to get a feel of what the chords are like and go from there.
i dno about cryptopsy usign melodic minor, every solo of them that i know (wich is quite alot, allot more than youll find online) are all harmonic minor, with a few notes from pure minor, to compensate a few part, but thats just 3 or 4 notes in a few solos jon made...

unless you talk about the later cryptopsy, once was not album, i havent looked into that, so they might use some melodic on that album.

tmfreak 2006-11-21 22:26

I mean just from playing around with the melo minor, it doesn't seem to fit very well in anything other than a part that wants to sound major. (happyish, if you will) I'm sure there could be a use for it in metal, but its pretty sketchy at least in any thing i play.

Pr0az 2006-11-21 22:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmfreak
I mean just from playing around with the melo minor, it doesn't seem to fit very well in anything other than a part that wants to sound major. (happyish, if you will) I'm sure there could be a use for it in metal, but its pretty sketchy at least in any thing i play.


All according to what keys you hit while inside that scale ;) .

7-string warlord 2006-11-23 12:10

Use the harmonic minor instead of the melodic minor, that one note difference makes it sound SO much better! It's easier to work with( for me anyways)

Unanything 2006-11-23 13:44

You need to try the different modes of the melo minor to hit the right spots. It's final mode, the superlocrian or altered mode, starts with a diminished bit that goes off in a wholetone direction. It has two fundamental chords: augmented and diminished.

I'll agree that the melo minor sounds very happy-ish, but it has qualities and harmonic possibilities you won't find in any other scale.

One of the greatest things I've written is in melo minor, A of the altered mode, although it's technically D# of the overtone (Lydian Dominant) mode because of where it starts. It's a 30-second introductory section to something I haven't completed, or learned to play thoroughly yet. It's also very technical.

Vittu0666 2007-04-10 19:27

Melodic Minor isn't used too much in metal...But if you would like to learn how to use it, then I highly suggest learning Bach's Carol Bells.

Quick question about Melodic Minor...

So as we all know, the scale changes as it is played descending. According to some scholars, this only happens with a specific chord progression. Anyone know what the progression is?

\m/Eat At Joe's\m/ 2007-04-21 10:54

hang on a minute. when i was learning piano melodic minor was minor ascending, more of a major feel descending. which means you could only really use it for ascending/descending scalar type passages. as far as chord progression, i have no idea. maybe something with tonic major??? who knows

Unanything 2007-04-21 12:09

Quote:
Originally Posted by \m/Eat At Joe's\m/
hang on a minute. when i was learning piano melodic minor was minor ascending, more of a major feel descending. which means you could only really use it for ascending/descending scalar type passages. as far as chord progression, i have no idea. maybe something with tonic major??? who knows


Yeah, it has some awesome chord possibilities, although yes, it is more commonly used in melody, it is MELODIC minor. Although if you start messig around with its inherent chords, you'll find some rather interesting possibilities. Especially with sevenths, ninths and symmetric chords.

JonR 2007-04-22 05:55

Quote:
Originally Posted by \m/Eat At Joe's\m/
hang on a minute. when i was learning piano melodic minor was minor ascending, more of a major feel descending. which means you could only really use it for ascending/descending scalar type passages. as far as chord progression, i have no idea. maybe something with tonic major??? who knows
The classical concept is that ascending melodic minor has a raised 6th and 7th. In A minor:
A B C D E F# G# A
This is in order to make a major-type resolution to the upper tonic (A).
When descending, the scale reverts to natural minor:
A G F E D C B A.
IOW, the descending sound is more minor in feel than the ascending one. (This applies to composition, not improvisation.)

Melodic minor is not really associated with any chord progressions per se. The ascending form would be used over the V7 chord (E7 in A minor), but not anywhere else.

In jazz, however, melodic minor is used in both directions as an improvisation scale. Its first mode is used over the tonic chord in a minor key. IOW, A melodic minor on an Am chord in the key of A minor. (The chord might be written as Am(maj7), or Am6.)
More interestingly - as Unanything says - modes of melodic minor are used over other chords, often in major keys.

E.g., for an E7 chord (in key of A minor or A major), a jazz player might use the "E altered" scale, which is 7th mode of F melodic minor. This gives the root, 3rd and 7th of the chord (E, G#, D), plus a b5 and #5 (Bb, C) and b9 and #9 (F, G). Jazz practice is to use it to resolve to A (melodic) minor or A major. But nothing says you have to... ;)

The other common use of a melodic minor mode is "lydian dominant" = 4th mode melodic minor. E.g., D melodic minor over a G7 chord. This is basically normal G mixolydian, but with a raised 4th: G A B C# D E F G.
In jazz, this chord typically resolves down a half-step, to F# major or F#m. Or it can resolve a whole step up - to A major. (It's not normally used to resolve to C major, although it could be.)
(Its nothing to do with the key of D minor. G7 wouldn't be used in that key.)

Another cool, but rarer, mode is "phrygian natural 6".
Over an Em chord, instead of E phrygian, you could play the D melodic minor scale = E phrygian natural 6: E-F-G-A-B-C#-D-E. A slightly brighter sound than plain E phrygian.

Unanything 2007-04-22 13:58

I suppose Lydian Dominant could also be called Mixolydian Augmented 4th...

Oh, and don't care about how it is used in metal or jazz, or if it is common or whatever. Just learn the scale and use it. Of course, guys will complain that they can't use it because the song jsut does not have room for it. It's like someone trying to fit a F# Pentatonic Major into a C Natural Major, unless you are trying to be interesting.

Olmonatron 2007-12-15 15:29

yeah melodic minor sucks. don't use it in metal. it's just a major scale with a minor third and it really only sounds good in jazz or other genres that you don't want to listen to. the only way i could think about using it in metal is if you are playing in a major key and you want to hint at a minor scale for a bit. but that's really just borrowing from the parallel minor.

forget what you know about Melodic minor and go back to good ole' Harmonic minor! you'll find metal all over that scale.

i've found that a lot of metalheads will switch between harmonic and natural minor. it's easy to do if you know where the root is. all you have to do is play natural minor and then throw in the leading tone (major 7th - one fret below the tonic) every once in a while when you want some dissonance or you want to resolve to the tonic. also, by doing this you can use diminished chords as much as you want and it sounds evil. \m/

it's easier to look at the scales in this order:

major................1,2,3,4,5,6,7
melodic minor.....1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
natural minor......1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7
harmonic minor...1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7


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