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-   -   History of music and theory? (http://metaltabs.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20525)

blizzard_beast 2005-04-28 00:24

History of music and theory?
 
I figured this was the best place to put it, so here goes.
So, what's the history of music theory and shit like that?

I mean, did all the theory/notation/scale stuff start in Medieval times? What other known forms were there that could have influenced this?
Like what was the first scale created? From what and where did it all begin?

And, how is the development of music theory linked with Christianity and the Bible in general? (Specific cases would be nice too e.g certain scales being linked with the Devil.) Was Christianity a major influence on music, or the only influnce in the creation of scales?

If this is case then, finally, if - hypothetically Christianity did not exist and some other form of power and control was in it's place, in what way would that change and influence music and music theory?

Cheerio

(fuck, yeah it's long, but this is fascinating shit - any links would be helpful too)

powersofterror 2005-04-28 01:13

In one post, you managed to ask quite a lot....:)

"Scales" started with modes. There was no such thing as major and minor yet. It was all modal. Plainchant--or gregorian chant--was pretty much the first form of music, so basically the roman catholic church was the first to use music officially. Plainchant is of course church music, and it was started with monophony. That's like singing in the shower, one voice alone without any type of counterpoint or polyphony to accompaniment. I'm going to say that not till about the baroque era did music of the theater and court come into being. I could be wrong on that one though....

guitar_demon 2005-04-28 14:06

im not sure when exactly is started but just like anything else it has evolved tremendiously (sp?) since it began

blizzard_beast 2005-04-28 14:26

Cheers Powers. So what is the difference between modes and scales?
For example, would this be correct?

X Mode = X Minor/Major mode?

If this is the case, when were the modes split up into major and minor scales?

Man, I guess my other questions could only be answered by a guy with a Phd in music history or something!

Edit: * tremendously ;)
What I'd also really like to look into is what factors influenced the evolution of music.. I mean, it started pure and simple presumably by singing or tapping on drums (whatever) before Christianity, but is the expansion of music and notation into more advanced realms a benefactor of Christianity?

Argh! So many hard questions!

:mad:

Rattlehead 2005-04-28 16:49

At any rate, Christianity had a HUGE role. Don't quote me on this, but I heard that music was banned in many places because it had such great power for mobilizing people (maybe armed people too, like in revolts or mutinies). At any rate I know that at a certain time the Roman Catholic papacy banned the use of the major triad because it was so lively ...

Though I think music took its roots long before Roman Catholicism. I think even before the Roman empire ... apparently Egyptians (and others) had some very primitive flutes.

Also, our music, Western music, is based off of the division of an octave into 12 notes. However in lots of Eastern music (think traditional Indian music for example) the octave is divided into I think 26 notes, a bit more than double what we have. That means that basically between every fret you would have another note ... that sounds complex just to think about.

Anyways apparently most of the modal stuff was developped by the Catholics, but I'm personally not to sure where we got all those other scales, like the melodic minor, the harmonic minor, the blues scale, diminished and augmented scales etc ...

It's really interesting but to find out you would have to do some research. The first place I would look would be for an intro to music history in your local library. Books are almost always better than websites for anything historical.

tchambliss 2005-04-29 08:34

About the Indian music thing, Didn't Steve Vai have a guitar constructed to play about the same? Erm, If I remember correctly he had a guitar based like that and that was how he came up with his own little scale, Xavian. Based on quarter semitones instead of half semitones, some crap like that. Don't quote me on the "quarter semitones/half semitones" thats probably not the right word for it.

powersofterror 2005-04-29 08:45

Music was never "banned." BUT....the augmented second was. Once.

BB, Uhhhh, you got me wrong. A mode is a scale. Major/minor didn't exist at the time. Then one day, some dude might have been like, "hell, I'm going to call the Mixolydian mode major, and then I can put flats and sharps in the key signature." Of course, that isn't exactly how it could have started, but that's the basic jist of it. I had quite a long discussion about this with thrashboy a while back if you remember that, haha, but truely, traditional classical music started like how I've said it. Thrashboy [I think] just goes off of unorthadox'ed jazz theory, which can combine anything...:p:rolleyes:

MetalGuitarFro 2005-04-29 22:41

The #4/b5 was also banned from all church music at one point. It was called the "devil's interval" or something like that because it sounds very evil. I believe it started being used again once some no name guy named..... dang, what was his name again...... oh yeah, J. S. Bach started using it....

The "no name" part being sarcasm of course, and I am pretty sure all of that information is correct. Cheers. :beer:

guitar_demon 2005-04-29 22:49

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalGuitarFro
, J. S. Bach started using it....

:

wow the guy from skid row! baddass :rolleyes: :p

ukfswmart 2005-04-30 03:06

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalGuitarFro
The #4/b5 was also banned from all church music at one point. It was called the "devil's interval" or something like that because it sounds very evil


I thought it was the tritone that was banned, which is root b3 b5, and that it was banned in general, not just in the church

amerok 2005-04-30 13:38

a tritone isnt b3 and b5, thats diminished, which the used all the time.

powersofterror 2005-04-30 18:19

A tritone is three minor thirds. A #4, or a dim5 is a tritone.

tchambliss 2005-05-02 12:50

yeah. . .
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
Thrashboy [I think] just goes off of unorthadox'ed jazz theory, which can combine anything...:p:rolleyes:


Hey, I hope you weren't talking about me in that. . . as unorthadox as I may be in my methods. Hence, I would guess you may have been talking about me. *didn't see a "thrashboy" on the forum* Yeah I'm blind and stoned stupid as usual. Anyways, about the whole music thing. Hendrix did a lot of things during his time that was considered to be "satanic". I believe it was during the main riff to purple haze yeah, that one was majorly evil in the olden days. At least I read that in some stupid tab book once upon a time. I'm not going to defend anything the book said, I just know they said it. Yeah, music. . . interesting. . . Why not focus more on learning music than the origin. That you can actually do rather than have a lot of rumors or ideas. You will have what is known as fact.

feetunderwarpath 2005-05-02 14:30

Quote:
Originally Posted by blizzard_beast
Cheers Powers. So what is the difference between modes and scales?


Modes apply to scales, depending on what mode you play in depends on what notes you flat (or in one of the modes you sharp the 4th I believe, forget what it's called though), like in one of them you flat the 3rd, which means if you were to take a scale and write out all the notes starting with the letter of the scale you are playing you would go to the 3rd note on the list and flat it (That means you move it one note down, but you don't skip the sharps).

powersofterror 2005-05-02 15:26

Wow, haha, dude, you didn't even answer his question.:p Good thing I did.....:rolleyes:

tchambliss 2005-05-04 08:16

Quote:
Originally Posted by feetunderwarpath
Modes apply to scales, depending on what mode you play in depends on what notes you flat (or in one of the modes you sharp the 4th I believe, forget what it's called though), like in one of them you flat the 3rd


The one where you sharp the 4th is Lydian, as for the one of them that you flat the 3rd, that would apply to any minor scale. for example Dorian(II), Phrygian(III) and Aeolian(VI) all have minor 3rds. . . (flatted 3rds). In the case of Locrian it's your diminished mode or half-diminished rather(-7b5). So it also has a minor third. Anyways, yeah later.

YJM04 2005-05-24 17:08

Quote:
Originally Posted by powersofterror
Music was never "banned." BUT....the augmented second was. Once.

BB, Uhhhh, you got me wrong. A mode is a scale. Major/minor didn't exist at the time. Then one day, some dude might have been like, "hell, I'm going to call the Mixolydian mode major, and then I can put flats and sharps in the key signature." Of course, that isn't exactly how it could have started, but that's the basic jist of it. I had quite a long discussion about this with thrashboy a while back if you remember that, haha, but truely, traditional classical music started like how I've said it. Thrashboy [I think] just goes off of unorthadox'ed jazz theory, which can combine anything...:p:rolleyes:

YEa the devils interval. just it was tri-tones and augmented suspends

YJM04 2005-05-24 17:23

this a great subject,that they need on the history channel or some shit. it started with gregorian chant by the roman catholic church, in the dark ages. the gregorian chant was originally in four modes:dorian,phrygian,lydian,and mixolydian. the devils interval (C,Eb,Gb,A,C) (notice how it ends on A C), or tri tones was banned saying it was connected with the devil. augumented suspends were also banned for the same reason, it does sound evil (Bb,Gb,A)and together they scare the crap out of me. :vampire: :eek:
but music dates back before those days. like in india, the vega makes clear references to their sitar. or eygpt with harmonic minor (snake charmer) shit.
music is from all over the place it would be too hard to find the exact date and place it began. music is even a very clear refernce saying that asian people and native american people are the same thing.
i hope this is anything new

Transient 2005-05-25 05:54

also - bach is responsible for the four part church song (chorale). he made up all the rules, following bits and pieces of everyone else. his chorales are still studied because they provide very clear and audible methods of harmonizing in four voices.

tchambliss 2005-05-26 14:25

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transient
also - bach is responsible for the four part church song (chorale). he made up all the rules, following bits and pieces of everyone else. his chorales are still studied because they provide very clear and audible methods of harmonizing in four voices.


ERG, Four part vocal tone(SATB) talk about a headache and a half.


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